2. Person Singular Conjugation in Munster Irish

Fáilte (Welcome) Forums General Discussion (Irish and English) 2. Person Singular Conjugation in Munster Irish

Viewing 14 posts - 1 through 14 (of 14 total)
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  • #36624
    DasBroc
    Participant

    Dia dhaoibh

    I was just wondering if the 2. Person Singular verb ending -ir is still actually being used in Munster Irish? Does anybody know?

    #44749
    Wee_Falorie_Man
    Participant

    According to a fluent native speaker from Múscraí who taught me Irish when I was first starting out: Táir is a very old-fashioned word that nobody would use anymore, but it is quite correct and can sometimes be found in old books so it’s good to understand táir whenever you run across it. Ná fuilir and An bhfuilir are definitely in use by native speakers. And of course, -ir is in use and very common in the 2nd person future tense.

    #44751
    Jonas
    Participant

    Wee Falorie Man is right, though I would say that -ir is never the most common ending. You could definitely hear tiocfair, for example, but you’d be much more likely to hear tiocfaidh tú. But as the question is whether it still is used, the answer is definitely yes.

    #44753
    Wee_Falorie_Man
    Participant

    Wee Falorie Man is right, though I would say that -ir is never the most common ending.

    I’m sure you’re right, Jonas. The person who taught me this, used synthetic endings more often than not, but that certainly doesn’t mean that the majority of people talk like him. He was in his mid-eighties, but I’m not sure if that had anything to do with it – maybe synthetic endings are less commonly used by younger speakers.

    #44754
    Jonas
    Participant

    Wee Falorie Man is right, though I would say that -ir is never the most common ending.

    I’m sure you’re right, Jonas. The person who taught me this, used synthetic endings more often than not, but that certainly doesn’t mean that the majority of people talk like him. He was in his mid-eighties, but I’m not sure if that had anything to do with it – maybe synthetic endings are less commonly used by younger speakers.

    Very much so, especially in Múscraí. Less of a generation difference in Corca Dhuibhne where Irish is much stronger as a community language. In Múscraí, which sadly is no longer a fíor-Ghaeltacht, the influence of standard Irish in the schools is much more evident.

    #44755
    Wee_Falorie_Man
    Participant

    Thanks for letting me know about that, Jonas. I’m partial to synthetic verb forms because that’s the way I was originally taught to speak by my venerable teacher. :coolsmile:

    #44756
    DasBroc
    Participant

    Go raibh maith agaibh!

    It’s sad to hear that the synthetic forms are passing, but I can’t say I’m really surprised either, given the pressure from the standard language. :down:

    In a similar vein, does anybody actually say “Conas taoi?”

    #44757
    Jonas
    Participant

    Go raibh maith agaibh!

    It’s sad to hear that the synthetic forms are passing, but I can’t say I’m really surprised either, given the pressure from the standard language. :down:

    That’s not the only reason. Passing from synthetic forms to analytical forms is common phenomena in lots of languages. It’s complete in Scandinavian languages, for instance, and even fully synthethic written languages like Finnish or Italian actively use personal pronouns in the spoken language.


    In a similar vein, does anybody actually say “Conas taoi?”

    Yes, but Conas tánn tu is much more common.

    #44758
    An Lon Dubh
    Participant

    Younger speakers in Corca Dhuibhne definitely still use an bhfuilir and ná fuilir.
    As Wee Falorie Man said, they are more common in the future.
    Conas taoi is heard as a less common variant of Conas tánn tú, as Jonas said.
    I think taoi was the original form the Bards used and that Táir evolved from generalising the “-fair”
    ending of the future to the present.

    #44761
    DasBroc
    Participant

    Jonas-

    “That’s not the only reason. Passing from synthetic forms to analytical forms is common phenomena in lots of languages. It’s complete in Scandinavian languages, for instance, and even fully synthethic written languages like Finnish or Italian actively use personal pronouns in the spoken language.”

    That’s true, but I feel that that particular change was fairly gradual, whereas in Munster Irish this seems to have happened fairly rapidly. And I find this worrying because continuity and inter-generational transmission is so important to endangered languages.

    Also, in many languages (German, for instance) the written form is more conservative than the actual spoken language and causes the language to undergo change at a slower pace. In Irish, a conservative written form was replaced by a modernised and simplified form.

    An Lon Dubh-

    Thanks! That actually makes a lot of sense.

    #44762
    Jonas
    Participant


    That’s true, but I feel that that particular change was fairly gradual, whereas in Munster Irish this seems to have happened fairly rapidly. And I find this worrying because continuity and inter-generational transmission is so important to endangered languages.

    Also, in many languages (German, for instance) the written form is more conservative than the actual spoken language and causes the language to undergo change at a slower pace. In Irish, a conservative written form was replaced by a modernised and simplified form.

    I’m not sure that is true, actually. If you go back to the original An t-Oileánach, published in 1929 and written in dialectal Munster Irish by a man born in 1856, you will find that Tomás quite often use analytical forms in both the present and the future even when synhetic forms exist. He does so to a lesser extent that speakers today, but today we’re almost 100 years after the time when he wrote. He constantly uses synthetic forms in the past, as do every speakers I’ve ever met in Corca Dhuibhne. The same goes for Peig Sayers telling stories recorded in the late 1920, she also uses the “fidh tú” for the future.

    In other words, what we have is precisely that fairly gradual change. There has been no change for the synthetic forms in the past, and both analytical and synthetic forms were in free variation 100 years ago, just as they are today. What we see in Corca Dhuibhne in this regard is the same change that has taken part in all other forms of Gaelic dialects (including Scotland and Isle of Man) and An Caighdeán, unknown to Tomás Ó Criomhthain and Peig Sayers, seems to play a very marginal role, if even that, in this development.

    #44763
    DasBroc
    Participant

    That’s very interesting! I didn’t know that, thanks.

    Any suggestions on what happened with the nasalization of vowels in Munster then?

    #44764
    An Lon Dubh
    Participant

    I know it was already essentially gone by the 1940s, it was even missing on some words in some dialects as early as the 1860s.
    However I don’t know why it disappeared.

    #44766
    DasBroc
    Participant

    Thanks, I was always curious about that.

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