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The use of the English names for Irish letters really is absurd, especially in cases like “g” or “e” where the English name bears no resemblance to the Irish pronunciation. It’s pure laziness.
it’s not absurd, it’s just because all Irish-speakers also speak English, so even if “g” is pronounced “gee” and doesn’t sound like the Irish sound, since people know English they understand.
Aonghus > how does he pronounce the h alone, ie. at the beginning of a word (or in a foreign word)?
And where can one listen to the program you’ve mentioned (where people are discussings terms)? grma
It is. It is much more logical to use the Irish names for both Irish and English. Even in English the letter “g” is pronounced [g] in the majority of cases.
The use of the English names for Irish letters really is absurd, especially in cases like “g” or “e” where the English name bears no resemblance to the Irish pronunciation. It’s pure laziness.
From “Learning Irish” pg. 223 (taken from “Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí” 1960 according to a footnote):-
á /É‘:/
bé /b’e:/
cé /c’e:/
dé /d’e:/
é /e:/
eif /ef’/
gé /g’e:/
héis* /he:s’/
í /i:/
[color=gray]jé /ʤe:/
ká /kÉ‘:/[/color]
eil /el’/
eim /em’/
ein /en’/
ó /o:/
pé /p’e:/
[color=gray]cú /ku:/[/color]
ear /æ:r/
eas /æ:s/
té /t’e:/
ú /u:/
[color=gray]vé /w’e:/
wé /we:/
ex /eks/
yé /É£’e:/
zae /ze:/[/color]The names given for some of the “foreign” letters (coloured grey above) seem a bit odd to me – based entirely on English pronunciation.
*I’ve seen “hé” elsewhere.
Why not [e:s] and [e:r]? And it should be [v’e:], not [w’e:].
Why not [e:s] and [e:r]? And it should be [v’e:], not [w’e:].I don’t know. I think “[æ:r]” and “[æ:s]” are intended to represent the Connamara pronunciation of [ær] and [aes](with short vowels) as [æ] is frequently lengthened there.
“[w’e:]” is the form used in the book.
I think the way that the alphabet is taught and pronounced can be important in any language. It’s the basis for all other pronunciations that are learned.
bu if you want it to be a basis, your alphabet should correspond to the phonemes of the language. And there are much more phonemes in Irish than there are letters. You’d have to learn
a
aË
b
bˈ
k
kˈ
d
dˈ
e
eË
É™
f
fˈ
g
gˈ
h
(hˈ)
i
iË
j
l
lˈ
L
L’
m
m’
n
n’
N
N’
o
o:
p
p’
r
r’
(R)
s
s’
t
t’
u
u:
w
v’
x
x’
z
z’
É£
Å‹
ŋˈetc
🙂
Why not [e:s] and [e:r]? And it should be [v’e:], not [w’e:].I don’t know. I think “[æ:r]” and “[æ:s]” are intended to represent the Connamara pronunciation of [ær] and [aes](with short vowels) as [æ] is frequently lengthened there.
“[w’e:]” is the form used in the book.
[æ] is a in “man”. It can be pronounced instead of [a] in Irish, not instead of [e]. [w’e:] is certainly impossible in Irish.
w’ is probably like u in French puis.[æ] is a in “man”. It can be pronounced instead of [a] in Irish, not instead of [e]. [w’e:] is certainly impossible in Irish.
w’ is probably like u in French puis.no, O Siadhail uses it for the slender v. He could have used /v’/ instead but since he used /w/ for the broad bh/mh, to use less symbols he used /w’/ for the slender bh/mh. It doesn’t mean it’s a w sound phonetically.
In Foclòir Pòca the authors made the opposite choice, they’ve used the symbol /v/ for broad mh and bh.The symbols that you use in phonology may be any symbols, they represent abstract stuff (several variations of the same phoneme), not real sounds. Real sounds are phonetics, but that’s another thing. O Siadhail doesn’t write in phonetics, but in phonological transcription.
[æ] is a in “man”. It can be pronounced instead of [a] in Irish, not instead of [e]. [w’e:] is certainly impossible in Irish.
w’ is probably like u in French puis.Why shouldn’t the letter “S” be pronounced with [æ]? The country name “An Eastóin” is also pronounced with [æ], not [e].
As for w’, I think in Irish phonetics the general practice is to use the same symbol for broad and slender sounds. The “sh” sound is also expressed as s’.
Why shouldn’t the letter “S” be pronounced with [æ]?
I’ve not understood your question
The country name “An Eastóin” is also pronounced with [æ], not [e].
“ea” is rarely pronounced [e] anyway, normally it’s [a] or [æ] when stressed.
As for w’, I think in Irish phonetics the general practice is to use the same symbol for broad and slender sounds.
in Irish
phonology
, not phonetics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhonologyWhy shouldn’t the letter “S” be pronounced with [æ]?
I’ve not understood your question
As for w’, I think in Irish phonetics the general practice is to use the same symbol for broad and slender sounds.
in Irish
phonology
, not phonetics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonology1. I was referring to Macroman’s post concerning the pronunciation of the letter S as [æ:s].
2. Quite right. I always get the two buggars (i.e. phonetics and phonology) mixed up. 🙂
Why shouldn’t the letter “S” be pronounced with [æ]?
I’ve not understood your question
As for w’, I think in Irish phonetics the general practice is to use the same symbol for broad and slender sounds.
in Irish
phonology
, not phonetics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonology1. I was referring to Macroman’s post concerning the pronunciation of the letter S as [æ:s].
2. Quite right. I always get the two buggars (i.e. phonetics and phonology) mixed up. 🙂
It’s written éar and éas and must be pronounced [e:r] [e:s].
It’s written éar and éas and must be pronounced [e:r] [e:s].A Marcoman, a chara, where did you find these spellings? I suppose it’s hard to tell what is the correct spelling, given the fact that hardly anyone uses Irish names for the letters, but The Christian Brothers’ Grammar spells both letters with a short “e”.
It’s written éar and éas and must be pronounced [e:r] [e:s].A Marcoman, a chara, where did you find these spellings? I suppose it’s hard to tell what is the correct spelling, given the fact that hardly anyone uses Irish names for the letters, but The Christian Brothers’ Grammar spells both letters with a short “e”.
Sorry, I misread those names. Then they sre pronounsed [ar] and [as], e is not pronounced before a at the beginning of words if they are not preceded by the article (it is not pronounced anyway but it slenderizes the previous consonant).
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