Another Beginner Dialect Question – Choosing Based on Materials?

Fáilte (Welcome) Forums General Discussion (Irish and English) Another Beginner Dialect Question – Choosing Based on Materials?

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  • #36610
    Kristen
    Participant

    Hello, everyone!

    I’m sure there are loads of threads similar to this floating around these extremely informative boards, so if you would rather point me in that direction than re-answer, I understand!

    I have a small personal dilemma about the best way to go about beginning my Irish studies, so I am hoping some of you can give a bit of advice. I, of course, want to learn Irish and have started out with the Rosetta Stone program. I got it in May and worked at it for about a month or two, but then my university classes started up, so I had to put it temporarily to the wayside. Things are looking pretty good in the free time department for me right now, so I want to start it up again and really get going. I am hoping to travel to Ireland for the first time in the summer of 2014 and would love to spend a bit of time in a Gaeltacht and strike up a few conversations as Gaeilge. Now that I have learned about the different dialects, I understand that it is probably best to focus on one, so I would like to spend my time in a Gaeltacht that uses the dialect I am learning, naturally, although I know that I shouldn’t have a problem communicating with other dialect speakers.

    I am told that the Rosetta Stone course uses the Munster dialect, as it is supposedly easiest for new learners to grasp. I personally enjoy the sound of it, and before I had to go on hiatus, I felt like I was starting to get the hang of some of the pronunciations and such. However, the academic in me really wants/needs written material in front of me to get a look at grammar explanations, which is something I don’t get with my program, so I have been looking long and hard at materials online. I read great things about Learning Irish by Michael O’Siadhail, but I believe it is exploring Connacht Irish from what I read in the reviews.

    As I am completely a self-learner with no chance of attending a class (The closest one is six and a half hours away!), I need very strong, effective, accessible learning materials. I enjoy the Munster Irish that I have been learning on Rosetta Stone, and it seems a bit more intuitive for my brain, but I am in want of a good supplement, and it seems that most of the recommended books and tapes are Connacht. I am extremely open to learning any dialect, but I would like to be able to focus on one, so for a complete novice with no face-to-face help, do you guys have an opinion on which would be easiest for me to learn, based solely on availability of good material? If someone could point me to an excellent Munster grammar guide, I would be very thankful and could continue on the path I started, but if not, I am just as fine with switching.

    Go raith math agaibh!
    Kristen

    #44590
    féabar
    Participant

    I think I would decide which part of the country you would like to visit, and investigate what real opportunities you would have to speak Irish in the various places. i think I would think in terms of enrolling in an adult learners’ course somewhere for a week or so and then you’d have the opportunity to use your bit of Irish in the community which you visit. I know of Oideas Gael in Donegal and I know there is a comparable place in Connemara. I don’t know much about classes in Munster. Ádh mór ort! Good luck to you.

    I personally studied with the “Tús Maith” CD set and then went to Oideas Gael summer school for a couple of years. It is definitely Ulster influenced, but covers and is written in the Caidgheán Oifigiúil which is the national standard writing system for the language. It will give you a bit of a base to be able to then jump off from and listen to materials from native Donegal speakers. (I am in that point of my journey) It’s a jump to do that, but there really aren’t any dialectical beginners’ courses. A few people on this forum are talking about developing such beginner courses. The Caighdeán Oifigiúil is not a dialect per se but is spoken by the majority of learners who have learned in the Gaelscóileanna and in Adult learning classes, and in Urban areas.

    Please come on to the forum and enjoy posting. Don’t get side-tracked and consumed in on-line arguments about the survival of the language. Just get into the water and speak some Irish. Learn what you can and do the best that you can with the best materials you can get ahold of. Daltaí is a great organization dedicated to helping you!

    #44591
    Wee_Falorie_Man
    Participant

    The most thorough book of Munster grammar (in English) is the original Teach Yourself Irish by Myles Dillon and Donncha Ó Cróinín. It was in print from 1961 to 1992. Be careful not to get the book by the same name that was published after 1992 – it is an entirely different book that teaches “standard” Irish. Teach Yourself Irish is a small book that is crammed with lots of information so it may seem a little daunting at first, but if you read through it slowly and patiently, it’s not too bad. In fact, if you manage to learn everything that is taught in this book, you’ll be virtually fluent. There are also good sound files that are made with native speakers for Teach Yourself Irish; you can download them for free, but I can’t remember the link at the moment – which reminds me, the folks on Rosetta Stone are from Kerry so they will sometimes sound slightly different from the speakers in Teach Yourself Irish who are from Cork. One last thing, Rosetta Stone teaches a funny sort of “standardized” Munster Lite version of Irish that carefully avoids using synthetic verb forms whenever possible even though synthetic verbs are correct and widely used in Munster Irish – just letting ya know …

    Also, I recommend taking a look (and a listen) at the Cork Irish web-site’s verb conjugations:

    http://corkirish.wordpress.com/verb-conjugation/

    They are read by a fluent native speaker from the Cork Gaeltacht.

    #44592
    féabar
    Participant

    Wee Falorie Man:

    These audio files are fabulous. I wonder if such files exist for Ulster Irish. This is a wonderful resource.

    #44593
    Wee_Falorie_Man
    Participant

    As far as I know, the Cork Irish web-site is the only place on the net that has sound files for complete conjugations like these.

    By the way, the person who is reading the verbs is the same guy who’s narrating this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTj8yMK6HE8

    #44594
    Kristen
    Participant

    Go raibh math agaibh, you two! Both of you have been very helpful.

    Féabar – I haven’t yet heard of or come across “Tús Maith.” Thanks for mentioning it! I will have to check it out as I continue my search. I would absolutely love to enroll in a course! I’m not sure if I will be in country long enough to do it in addition to some other things I am hoping to get around to this time around, but maybe I will be able to scout some out to check into for the next go around. It will be a good excuse to make another trip to Ireland soon! 🙂 Enrolling is a great idea. Thanks for the welcome, also! I already enjoy reading the posts around here, most of which are way over my head, but it is great motivation to get learning!

    Wee Falorie Man – Féabar is right! That is an excellent resource! Thanks so much for sharing. The entire site looks great and full of information, and the audio is wonderful. I also very much appreciate that they have the phonetic transcription next to it. That is a dream realized for me! That is really interesting about the standardized Munster version on Rosetta Stone. I had no idea! Thanks for the heads up. I definitely want to learn the synthetic verb forms! I am on the hunt for Dillon’s Teach Yourself Irish as we speak. The only book I can find anywhere around here is the new, standard version. I almost bought it when I started out, but I’m glad I didn’t. (Ah! Just found Dillon’s 1961 version! Very excited! It looks splendid.)

    Again, thanks a million to the both of you!

    #44695
    Jonas
    Participant

    The most thorough book of Munster grammar (in English) is the original Teach Yourself Irish by Myles Dillon and Donncha Ó Cróinín. It was in print from 1961 to 1992. Be careful not to get the book by the same name that was published after 1992 – it is an entirely different book that teaches “standard” Irish. Teach Yourself Irish is a small book that is crammed with lots of information so it may seem a little daunting at first, but if you read through it slowly and patiently, it’s not too bad. In fact, if you manage to learn everything that is taught in this book, you’ll be virtually fluent.

    I would agree with that, and I would agree with the praise of David’s work on bringing us free access to Cork Irish. It’s truly admirable.

    The only problem with the great course by Dillon and Ó Cróinín is a rather limited vocabulary. In my experience from various languages, you’ll need to have a vocabulary of around 2000 words to get by in even basic everyday life, while around 3000 words will have see you able to discuss in almost every situation except very specific contexts. These “2000” and “3000” are rough estimates, and different for different languages as well, but I’ve found them reasonably correct.

    If memory serves me right, Dillon and Ó Cróinín stop at around 1000 words. So if you complete their excellent book, you’ll know all the grammar you need, if you’ve digested it all, but you will still need to add to your vocabulary. I think even Learning Irish falls way short of 2000 words; I don’t know if any Irish course reaches that number.

    For comparison, most of the French Assimil courses go well beyond 2000 words – but they are very weak on grammar. A few of Routledge’s Colloquial courses land at around 2000 words, but most (including Colloquial Irish, Colloquial Scottish Gaelic and Colloquial Welsh) are much shorter. And though the Colloquial courses are better on grammar than Assimil, they are nowhere near as good as Dillon and Ó Cróinín and Learning Irish.

    Unfortunately the Celtic languages don’t have that many really good extensive courses. Let’s not even compare with French, Italian, Spanish, German, Russian or Chinese, but I have courses in relatively rarely studied languages (such as Persian, Bulgarian, Romanian, Albanian and Croatian & Serbian) that combine a wonderfully detailed grammar with more than 3000 words. It would be great to see a course like that for every Celtic language.

    #44696
    Wee_Falorie_Man
    Participant

    The only problem with the great course by Dillon and Ó Cróinín is a rather limited vocabulary. In my experience from various languages, you’ll need to have a vocabulary of around 2000 words to get by in even basic everyday life, while around 3000 words will have see you able to discuss in almost every situation except very specific contexts. These “2000” and “3000” are rough estimates, and different for different languages as well, but I’ve found them reasonably correct.

    If memory serves me right, Dillon and Ó Cróinín stop at around 1000 words. So if you complete their excellent book, you’ll know all the grammar you need, if you’ve digested it all, but you will still need to add to your vocabulary. I think even Learning Irish falls way short of 2000 words; I don’t know if any Irish course reaches that number.

    That’s true. I think 1,000 words is certainly a good start, but of course 2,000 or 3,000 words would be even better. Unfortunately, the publisher put severe constraints on Dillon and Ó Cróinín, but they still managed to do an admirable job of fitting in as much as they could into such a small book.

    I would have liked to see more exercises myself. Exercise 1 (Lesson 1), for example, has only 15 exercises when I think it should have had more like a hundred. Oh well, the authors had to do the best they could with the number of pages that they were allowed to publish.

    Unfortunately the Celtic languages don’t have that many really good extensive courses. Let’s not even compare with French, Italian, Spanish, German, Russian or Chinese, but I have courses in relatively rarely studied languages (such as Persian, Bulgarian, Romanian, Albanian and Croatian & Serbian) that combine a wonderfully detailed grammar with more than 3000 words. It would be great to see a course like that for every Celtic language.

    Well, once you publish your language course, I have no doubt that it will become the gold standard of Irish language courses! A thorough extensive Munster language course has been a long time coming …

    #44697
    Jonas
    Participant

    Unfortunately the Celtic languages don’t have that many really good extensive courses. Let’s not even compare with French, Italian, Spanish, German, Russian or Chinese, but I have courses in relatively rarely studied languages (such as Persian, Bulgarian, Romanian, Albanian and Croatian & Serbian) that combine a wonderfully detailed grammar with more than 3000 words. It would be great to see a course like that for every Celtic language.

    Well, once you publish your language course, I have no doubt that it will become the gold standard of Irish language courses! A thorough extensive Munster language course has been a long time coming …

    Let’s exchange that once for if 😉 I worked very hard on it in August and first half of September, but just opened the document for the first time in three weeks. I’ve been travelling a lot, and lot of work. But on the plus side, the grammar is almost done. If I wanted to publish a grammar for Corca Dhuibhne, I would be done in no time. Though I wouldn’t see the point, as Ó Sé already did and his is much more extensive.

    And I don’t think I’ll reach 3000 words. But more than 2000 definitely, otherwise I don’t see any point in it.

    #44698
    Wee_Falorie_Man
    Participant

    Let’s exchange that once for if 😉 I worked very hard on it in August and first half of September, but just opened the document for the first time in three weeks. I’ve been travelling a lot, and lot of work. But on the plus side, the grammar is almost done. If I wanted to publish a grammar for Corca Dhuibhne, I would be done in no time. Though I wouldn’t see the point, as Ó Sé already did and his is much more extensive.

    And I don’t think I’ll reach 3000 words. But more than 2000 definitely, otherwise I don’t see any point in it.

    “If”?? What kind of talk is that?! 🙂 It’s time to set aside unimportant things like “travel” and “work”, so that you can finish up this Irish language course! Just think of the fame, the prestige, the glory that will come from making the only comprehensive Munster Irish course in the history of the world! Now are you inspired?

    By the way, I think it would be great if you were to publish a grammar of Corca Dhuibhne Irish; if you did, it would be the only one in the English language. Yes, Ó Sé is very thorough, but his grammar book is written entirely in Irish which is way too daunting for most English-speaking learners like myself.

    #44746
    DasBroc
    Participant

    Just wanted to chip in and say thanks to Wee_Falorie_Man for putting up the link to the conjugations on Cork Irish! I was using the site already, but I wanted to check the conjugation for verbs like léigh and nigh and I didn’t know it gave them in detail as well

    #44748
    Wee_Falorie_Man
    Participant

    Just wanted to chip in and say thanks to Wee_Falorie_Man for putting up the link to the conjugations on Cork Irish! I was using the site already, but I wanted to check the conjugation for verbs like léigh and nigh and I didn’t know it gave them in detail as well

    Tá fáilte romhat! 🙂

    I can honestly say that there is no way to learn proper Munster Irish on-line without the Cork Irish website. If David ever were to decide to make an on-line course, it would be a great success indeed!

    If I wanted to publish a grammar for Corca Dhuibhne, I would be done in no time. Though I wouldn’t see the point, as Ó Sé already did and his is much more extensive.

    It is very very hard to understand grammar explanations that are written in the language that you are trying to learn. In fact, I can barely understand grammar books that are written in English! That’s why a thorough grammar book of Munster Irish (that is written in English!) would be so important.

    #44752
    Jonas
    Participant

    If I wanted to publish a grammar for Corca Dhuibhne, I would be done in no time. Though I wouldn’t see the point, as Ó Sé already did and his is much more extensive.

    It is very very hard to understand grammar explanations that are written in the language that you are trying to learn. In fact, I can barely understand grammar books that are written in English! That’s why a thorough grammar book of Munster Irish (that is written in English!) would be so important.

    I’ll keep that in mind, given that my grammar sections for Corca Dhuibhne are almost finished while the course (exercices, dialogues) is far from finished. If ever I give up, I could just put the grammar sections on-line after some editing. Though they would be a poor substitute for the much more detailed description given by Ó Sé for those who really want to know all the details.

    Having said that, I would say Ó Sé’s book is very weak on syntax, and I guess describing the syntax wasn’t his ambition. There are loads of information about all the different grammatical forms, but very little on how and when to use them.

    #44759
    An Lon Dubh
    Participant

    I certainly agree Jonas, a lot of books lack information on syntax. Were you planning to include syntax in your grammar?

    #44770
    Daithi Carr
    Participant

    Just on classes in Munster, these folk, Oidhreacht Chorca Dhuibhne do excellent classes in Kerry.

    http://www.oidhreacht.ie/

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