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I know that chun takes the genitive but I thought that the noun in an infinitive phrase remained unaffected
e.g. chun an doras a oscailt..
but in Ó Siadhail’s Modern Irish there is this construction on p. 296
cé tá chun an dorais a oscailt
and I’ve seen another couple of examples of this type of construction recently where the noun was in the genitive.
cé tá na hoibre a dhéanamh
I also came across both chun an fhírinne a rá and chun na fírinne a rá in FGB but I don’t know if this has any bearing on the other examplesWhat I’d like to know is if there is a general rule at play here, or is it only in this cé tá chun…construction or is it just a dialectical thing?
Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this for me
I don’t consider Google translate to be reliable when it comes to subtleties of the language, but I wonder if there is anything useful in the fact that it translates:
cé tá chun an dorais a oscailt
to mean “while the door is open”, and
cé tá chun an doras a oscailt
to mean “although the door is open”.
Oh, and by the way, Wong seems to cobborate you assessment of the infinitive with chun:
chun/le + (Object +) Verbal Noun
Indicates intended activity, and if there is an object, the object is a noun
in the dative case; the Verbal Noun translates as the infinitive.
Fillfimid ar maidin chun ithe. or
Fillfimid ar maidin le hithe.
‘We will return in the morning to eat.’cé tá chun an dorais a oscailt
to mean “while the door is open”,
that Irish sentence can’t been translated by that English sentence.
cé tá chun an doras a oscailt
to mean “although the door is open”.
same thing.
Although the door is open would be “cé go bhfuil an doras oscailte”.
Google Translator is crap, at least for Irish… (with other languages, most of the time it gives a translation that gives you a general idea of the meaning of the text. But with these translations from Irish, you don’t even roughly understand… you only know it talks about a door and about opening 🙂 )As an aside, I tend to believe it is problematic to think of any construction as “infinitive” since technically Irish has none. But that probably doesn’t help to answer your question 😉 I think Lughaidh is right though – probably a Munster thing.
First let me thank you all for replying.
Yeah I agree that referring to the term as infinitive is inaccurate but I didn’t know what else to call it.
So the general idea seems to be that this construction is a purely dialectical thing, so then would
cé tá an doras a oscailt
also be correct?I personally prefer itranslate, it fits on your phone and you get even more confusing translations… 🙂
So the general idea seems to be that this construction is a purely dialectical thing, so then would
cé tá an doras a oscailt
also be correct?One correction needed. cé tá chun an doras a oscailt
The possible dialectical aspect would be the use of the genitive in that type of construction rather than the nominative, i.e. an dorais vs. an doras
In my experience it should be “an doras” but apparently that isn’t the way they do it everywhere, or I’m just wrong.So the general idea seems to be that this construction is a purely dialectical thing, so then would
cé tá an doras a oscailt
also be correct?One correction needed. cé tá chun an doras a oscailt
The possible dialectical aspect would be the use of the genitive in that type of construction rather than the nominative, i.e. an dorais vs. an doras
In my experience it should be “an doras” but apparently that isn’t the way they do it everywhere, or I’m just wrong.Oops the very thing I was asking about I left out. :-S
Lughaidh is right. In Munster the noun tends to be in the genitive after chun/le linn/tar éis, even as the object
of a verbal noun.Even in Munster though, some people don’t put the noun in the genitive.
Yeah I agree that referring to the term as infinitive is inaccurate but I didn’t know what else to call it.
verbal noun clause
So the general idea seems to be that this construction is a purely dialectical thing, so then would
cé tá an doras a oscailt
also be correct?what would it mean?
“who is opening the door” is Cè atà ag oscailt an dorais? in St. Irish.Cè atà an doras a oscailt would mean “who(m) is the door opening” (if the door is able to open someone…)
Cé tá chun an dorais a oscailt?
Who is to open the door?
But looking at what you wrote, should it be cé atá chun… here as well. I know in Munster Irish the “a” before tá is quite often omitted?
Would it then be cé atá chun an doras a oscailt? in St. Irish?The plot thickens. :cheese:
But looking at what you wrote, should it be cé atá chun… here as well. I know in Munster Irish the “a” before tá is quite often omitted?
in all dialects btw, the relative “a” is often dropped in rapid speech.
Would it then be cé atá chun an doras a oscailt? in St. Irish?
yes that’s right
in all dialects btw, the relative “a” is often dropped in rapid speech.
Yeah, like Lughaidh says, short, unstressed vowels at the beginnings or ends of words in general are usually dropped in speech when a stressed vowel immediately ends the word before or begins the word after, respectively.
Aye I know these sort of unstressed particles are often dropped or elided in speech, but isn’t it the case that in Munster Irish this occurs in writing with atá and it is often just written tá?
Or have I picked up the wrong end of the shtick again? (Happens often)
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