Declension Question

[Murchadh]

According to “An Foclóir Póca” verbal nouns like “lonnú” and “corraí” are 4th declension nouns.
I thought the nom. s. and g.s. were identical in the 4th dec. but the genitive of words like the above is formed by adding “-the”.
Are they actually 4th dec. nouns or has this something to do with the “Lárchanúint”?

[Murchadh]

No idea?

Let me ask a more direct question:

To which declension, if any, do verbal nouns of this type belong?

[Onuvanja]

Seans gur meancóg atá ann… Tá “éalú” agus “cónaí” sa dara díochlaonadh, dar leis na Bráithre Chríostaí, ar aon nós. Féach ar phointí 17.5 go 17.10.

http://ec.europa.eu/translation/irish/documents/christian_brothers_comprehensive_irish_grammar_ga.pdf

[Lughaidh]

Darna dìochlaonadh? Do ghnàth, nuair a chuirtear ainm don darna dìochlaonadh sa ghinideach, caolaìthear an consan deireanach (muna bhfuil sè caol go fòill) agus cuirtear -e leis:
fuinneog > fuinneoige.

dar liom nach dtig le “cònaì” nà le “èalù” bheith sa darna dìochlaonadh…

[Labhrás]

Seans gur meancóg atá ann… Tá “éalú” agus “cónaí” sa dara díochlaonadh, dar leis na Bráithre Chríostaí, ar aon nós. Féach ar phointí 17.5 go 17.10.

http://ec.europa.eu/translation/irish/documents/christian_brothers_comprehensive_irish_grammar_ga.pdf

An Dara Réimniú
17.5 Is iad seo na rialacha ginearálta i dtaobh dhéanamh na n-ainmneacha briathartha sa dara
réimniú
* -aigh > ú; -igh (ar lorg consain) > -iú: scrúdú, cruinniú
* -t a chur le fréamhacha na mbriathra coimrithe: cosaint.

An dara réimniú ag na briathra!
Ní hé sin an dara díochlaonadh ag na hainmfhocal.

réimniú = conjugation of verbs
díochlaonadh = declension of nouns, adjectives, etc.

Verbal nouns like lonnú, corraí, scrudú, cruinniú don’t belong to any numbered declension group.

[Fionlannach Fiosrach]

I guess verbal Nouns are neuter as well?

[Lughaidh]

I’m not sure I understand what you mean… there’s no neutral gender anymore in Modern Irish… most (all?) verbal nouns are masculine.

[Murchadh]

@Labhrás –
Verbal nouns like lonnú, corraí, scrudú, cruinniú don’t belong to any numbered declension group.

I see. I thought all nouns, including verbal nouns, must belong to a declension. Would they be considered “irregular nouns”?

@Lughaidh –
I’m not sure I understand what you mean… there’s no neutral gender anymore in Modern Irish… most (all?) verbal nouns are masculine.

Aren’t there many feminine verbal nouns – gabháil, cosaint, nighe etc.?

[Lughaidh]

Aren’t there many feminine verbal nouns – gabháil, cosaint, nighe etc.?

yeah that’s right, some irregular ones are feminine. But earlier, when I was answering you I mainly thought of the most common verbal nouns, that end with -adh, -ú, etc, and those are masculine. But several are feminine, that’s right. Now, anyway it doesn’t change many things because you seldom use verbal nouns with the article before or with an adjective after, and you seldom need to put them in the genitive…

[Onuvanja]

An dara réimniú ag na briathra!
Ní hé sin an dara díochlaonadh ag na hainmfhocal.

réimniú = conjugation of verbs
díochlaonadh = declension of nouns, adjectives, etc.

Verbal nouns like lonnú, corraí, scrudú, cruinniú don’t belong to any numbered declension group.

Oops! Tá brón orm. 🙂

Mar sin féin, nach féidir breathnú ar ainmneacha briathartha mar ainmfhocla, ós rud é gur féidir iad a dhíochlaonadh, sé sin, go bhfuil foirmeacha ginidigh (agus iolra?) acu? Déarfainn féin gur foirm dhíochlaonta den bhriathar (declinable verb form) atá san ainm briathartha, cé nach bhfuil a fhios agam an mbeadh glacadh leis an dearcadh sin i ngraiméir na Gaeilge…

[eadaoin]

this got me looking at Réchúrsa Gramadaí

for what it’s worth … it has 2 pages about An tAinm Briathartha …
it describes the usual forms, and says that you can divide the rest of them into declensions 1,2,3

eadaoin

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