Fáilte (Welcome) › Forums › General Discussion (Irish and English) › Draoi – dubh or dorcha
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Seosamh2012.
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October 9, 2014 at 6:06 pm #36781
Seosamh2012
ParticipantA Chairde,
what is the best translation for the English,
‘black magician’
?i.e. A magician who practises baneful sorcery and black magic.
g.r.m. agaibh
Seosamh
October 9, 2014 at 11:22 pm #45503Murchadh
ParticipantI’m not sure, but ‘asarlaidhe’ (C.O. ‘asarlaí’) might be better than ‘draoi’ for this meaning.
October 9, 2014 at 11:56 pm #45506Héilics Órbhuí
ParticipantIf an adjective is needed, my inclination was to say “dubh” and this is backed up somewhat by the fact that ÓÂ Donaill gives “black magic” as “dubhealaín”.
October 10, 2014 at 1:24 am #45509Seáinín
ParticipantAnd if dubhealaín is “black art, magic”, then a practioner of same might be a dubhealaíontoir.
October 10, 2014 at 5:13 pm #45512Seosamh2012
ParticipantAnd if dubhealaín is “black art, magic”, then a practioner of same might be a dubhealaíontoir.
Is there any precedent in Irish for this word?
grmaOctober 10, 2014 at 5:17 pm #45513Héilics Órbhuí
ParticipantNot that I’m aware of. Ealaiontoir is an artist. I don’t think “dubhealtaiontoir” would immediately connote a magician, but rather an evil artist of some kind. But maybe it has appeared in literature somewhere – who knows. “Asarlai/draoi na dubhealaine” seems more likely to me, but this too is speculation.
October 11, 2014 at 5:19 pm #45514Seáinín
ParticipantI’m not claiming that dubhealaíontoir is a legitimate word, only that there might be some logic in going from dubhealaín to it. Just for fun I searched the New Corpus for Ireland (http://corpas.focloir.ie) and found this quote from a 1996 edition of an Ulster newspaper:
“( is é sin , conas ‘ Cé gur cyberculchie mé le Gaeilge ‘ a chur ag glioscarnach ón tsúil chlé le linn do ‘ Ní Gaeilgeoir mé ‘ a theilgean ón tsúil dheas : dubhealaín dheacair nach dtig leis na dubhealaiontóirí sa Drúid a chleachtadh )”
So at least I wasn’t the first or only one to think this up. 🙂
October 11, 2014 at 5:57 pm #45515Héilics Órbhuí
ParticipantCool find. What was the actual source of that quote, do you know? The word “ealaíontóir” itself actually has a broader meaning than “artist” in the usual English sense, so this could very well be legit.
Also a nice reminder that one can’t rely on Google to find everything for you 😉
October 11, 2014 at 6:58 pm #45516Murchadh
ParticipantThere are a number of terms based on the root ‘diabhal‘ with this meaning:
diabhal-dán, diabhal-dánacht, diabhalnach (‘a necromancer’), diab(h)laidheacht*.These could be taken as pertaining specifically to activity involving the Abrahamic ‘devil’ rather than the more general concept of black magic but they’re certainly another option.
(*This word and diab(h)laidhe (adj.) are frequently pronounced with an unlenited ‘b’.)
October 14, 2014 at 9:44 pm #45533Seosamh2012
ParticipantThere are a number of terms based on the root ‘diabhal‘ with this meaning:
diabhal-dán, diabhal-dánacht, diabhalnach (‘a necromancer’), diab(h)laidheacht*.These could be taken as pertaining specifically to activity involving the Abrahamic ‘devil’ rather than the more general concept of black magic but they’re certainly another option.
(*This word and diab(h)laidhe (adj.) are frequently pronounced with an unlenited ‘b’.)
Go raibh maith agat, Murchadh – this makes more sense.
I’d like to pose a follow up question here in this context.
We all know Lugh, the Ildana – or, in Irish – Samhildanach;
how might we take the word Samhildanach and convert it to mean,
“Skilled in all the BLACK Arts” ?
go raibh mil maith agaibh
for reference, another source uses marbhdraoi for necromancer http://breis.focloir.ie/en/fgb/necromancer
October 14, 2014 at 11:04 pm #45534Murchadh
ParticipantGo raibh maith agat, Murchadh – this makes more sense.
I’d like to pose a follow up question here in this context.
We all know Lugh, the Ildana – or, in Irish – Samhildanach;
how might we take the word Samhildanach and convert it to mean,
“Skilled in all the BLACK Arts” ?
go raibh mil maith agaibh
“Diabhaldánach” I suppose. (“Dubh-dhánach” may seem like an obvious possibility but it means “fatal” apparently.)
for reference, another source uses marbhdraoi for necromancer http://breis.focloir.ie/en/fgb/necromancer
Marbh-dhraoi (& Marbh-dhraoidheacht) is also in Dinneen’s dictionary under “marbh-“.
In the same dictionary is the word Dubh-dhraoidheacht “sorcery, black-art” (from which one could form an adjective by suffixing -ach: dubh-dhraoidheachtach).October 14, 2014 at 11:18 pm #45535Murchadh
ParticipantI notice Duibh-ealadha(in) “black art, magic” & Duibh-ealadhanach “pertaining to black art; sm. a magician” is Dinneen’s too suggesting it’s not a recent borrowing from English
October 15, 2014 at 8:47 pm #45538Seosamh2012
Participant“( is é sin , conas ‘ Cé gur cyberculchie mé le Gaeilge ‘ a chur ag glioscarnach ón tsúil chlé le linn do ‘ Ní Gaeilgeoir mé ‘ a theilgean ón tsúil dheas : dubhealaín dheacair nach dtig leis na dubhealaiontóirí sa Drúid a chleachtadh )”
Very interesting quote – how would you translate this into English?
October 16, 2014 at 12:37 am #45542Héilics Órbhuí
ParticipantSomething like “that is, how to make ‘even though I am a cyber-yokel with Irish’ glimmer from your left eye while projecting ‘I’m not an Irish speaker’ from your right eye: a difficult black art that that the black magicians in the Druids didn’t manage to practice”.
I think.
(I don’t know how to appropriately translate “culchie”, but I chose “yokel” because it seems to mean some kind of a rural person).
October 16, 2014 at 9:13 pm #45543Seosamh2012
Participant).
Go raibh mil maith agat – culchie didnt even need translation 🙂
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