Draoi – dubh or dorcha

[Seosamh2012]

A Chairde,
what is the best translation for the English,
‘black magician’
?

i.e. A magician who practises baneful sorcery and black magic.

g.r.m. agaibh

Seosamh

[Murchadh]

I’m not sure, but ‘asarlaidhe’ (C.O. ‘asarlaí’) might be better than ‘draoi’ for this meaning.

[Héilics Órbhuí]

If an adjective is needed, my inclination was to say “dubh” and this is backed up somewhat by the fact that ÓÂ Donaill gives “black magic” as “dubhealaín”.

[Seáinín]

And if dubhealaín is “black art, magic”, then a practioner of same might be a dubhealaíontoir.

[Seosamh2012]

And if dubhealaín is “black art, magic”, then a practioner of same might be a dubhealaíontoir.

Is there any precedent in Irish for this word?
grma

[Héilics Órbhuí]

Not that I’m aware of. Ealaiontoir is an artist. I don’t think “dubhealtaiontoir” would immediately connote a magician, but rather an evil artist of some kind. But maybe it has appeared in literature somewhere – who knows. “Asarlai/draoi na dubhealaine” seems more likely to me, but this too is speculation.

[Seáinín]

I’m not claiming that dubhealaíontoir is a legitimate word, only that there might be some logic in going from dubhealaín to it. Just for fun I searched the New Corpus for Ireland (http://corpas.focloir.ie) and found this quote from a 1996 edition of an Ulster newspaper:

“( is é sin , conas ‘ Cé gur cyberculchie mé le Gaeilge ‘ a chur ag glioscarnach ón tsúil chlé le linn do ‘ Ní Gaeilgeoir mé ‘ a theilgean ón tsúil dheas : dubhealaín dheacair nach dtig leis na dubhealaiontóirí sa Drúid a chleachtadh )”

So at least I wasn’t the first or only one to think this up. 🙂

[Héilics Órbhuí]

Cool find. What was the actual source of that quote, do you know? The word “ealaíontóir” itself actually has a broader meaning than “artist” in the usual English sense, so this could very well be legit.

Also a nice reminder that one can’t rely on Google to find everything for you 😉

[Murchadh]

There are a number of terms based on the root ‘diabhal‘ with this meaning:
diabhal-dán, diabhal-dánacht, diabhalnach (‘a necromancer’), diab(h)laidheacht*.

These could be taken as pertaining specifically to activity involving the Abrahamic ‘devil’ rather than the more general concept of black magic but they’re certainly another option.

(*This word and diab(h)laidhe (adj.) are frequently pronounced with an unlenited ‘b’.)

[Seosamh2012]

There are a number of terms based on the root ‘diabhal‘ with this meaning:
diabhal-dán, diabhal-dánacht, diabhalnach (‘a necromancer’), diab(h)laidheacht*.

These could be taken as pertaining specifically to activity involving the Abrahamic ‘devil’ rather than the more general concept of black magic but they’re certainly another option.

(*This word and diab(h)laidhe (adj.) are frequently pronounced with an unlenited ‘b’.)

Go raibh maith agat, Murchadh – this makes more sense.

I’d like to pose a follow up question here in this context.

We all know Lugh, the Ildana – or, in Irish – Samhildanach;

how might we take the word Samhildanach and convert it to mean,

“Skilled in all the BLACK Arts” ?

go raibh mil maith agaibh

for reference, another source uses marbhdraoi for necromancer http://breis.focloir.ie/en/fgb/necromancer

[Murchadh]

Go raibh maith agat, Murchadh – this makes more sense.

I’d like to pose a follow up question here in this context.

We all know Lugh, the Ildana – or, in Irish – Samhildanach;

how might we take the word Samhildanach and convert it to mean,

“Skilled in all the BLACK Arts” ?

go raibh mil maith agaibh

“Diabhaldánach” I suppose. (“Dubh-dhánach” may seem like an obvious possibility but it means “fatal” apparently.)

for reference, another source uses marbhdraoi for necromancer http://breis.focloir.ie/en/fgb/necromancer

Marbh-dhraoi (& Marbh-dhraoidheacht) is also in Dinneen’s dictionary under “marbh-“.
In the same dictionary is the word Dubh-dhraoidheacht “sorcery, black-art” (from which one could form an adjective by suffixing -ach: dubh-dhraoidheachtach).

[Murchadh]

I notice Duibh-ealadha(in) “black art, magic” & Duibh-ealadhanach “pertaining to black art; sm. a magician” is Dinneen’s too suggesting it’s not a recent borrowing from English

[Seosamh2012]

“( is é sin , conas ‘ Cé gur cyberculchie mé le Gaeilge ‘ a chur ag glioscarnach ón tsúil chlé le linn do ‘ Ní Gaeilgeoir mé ‘ a theilgean ón tsúil dheas : dubhealaín dheacair nach dtig leis na dubhealaiontóirí sa Drúid a chleachtadh )”

Very interesting quote – how would you translate this into English?

[Héilics Órbhuí]

Something like “that is, how to make ‘even though I am a cyber-yokel with Irish’ glimmer from your left eye while projecting ‘I’m not an Irish speaker’ from your right eye: a difficult black art that that the black magicians in the Druids didn’t manage to practice”.

I think.

(I don’t know how to appropriately translate “culchie”, but I chose “yokel” because it seems to mean some kind of a rural person).

[Seosamh2012]

).

Go raibh mil maith agat – culchie didnt even need translation 🙂

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