Gaeilge

Viewing 15 posts - 61 through 75 (of 91 total)
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  • #44310
    Bríd Mhór
    Participant

    Depends on the region. Btw, many older people have learnt French at school because their first language was Breton, Alsacian, Languedocien, Corsican etc. In certain areas (West Indies, Polynesia…), many young people don’t speak French as their first language, but this doesn’t happen in Metropolitan France anymore because now 99,9999% of the parents speak French to their children, not a regional language even when they know one.

    That is sad.

    #44311
    Héilics Órbhuí
    Participant


    With respect to yourself and the other contributors on here, you don’t seem to be all that clued in on the actual linguistic situation on the ground here . . .

    If you mean that everyone is as clouded emotionally as you obviously are or that everyone behaves in the same asinine manner, no, I was not aware of either of those things. I also doubt they’re true, or at least I hope not.

    #44312
    Héilics Órbhuí
    Participant


    An Englishman I know is always commenting on expressions and words we use here which he has either never heard before or doesn’t understand. I find myself having to explain things on a regular basis. Funny that, seeing as English has to be “scaled back” in Helix’s words. Native speakers have to “scale back” using their own language. Good luck with that line in Paris!

    You obviously don’t understand my implications with that term. Nor do you understand very much. Your problem, if I can summarize it (at least insofar as you are incapable of being constructive), is that whenever you respond to someone, you aren’t even responding to them, you are responding to people like them. You are so full of preconceptions about where someone is coming from that you don’t even distinguish individual people. I honestly feel sorry for anyone who is around when you’re just “relaxing and being yourself” if that is anything like the way you are on here.

    #44313
    Daithi Carr
    Participant

    There are plenty of Native speakers outside the Gaeltacht,
    I know lots and its not from looking for them.
    There are those who have moved away, and raised their kids with their Irish, which has been reinforced when they go visit relatives and friends in the Gaeltacht, are they not native speakers?

    I know family who have more distant relatives from or in the Gaeltacht who have raised their children with Irish with a native blas,obviously living in a English speaking world they might not be as fluent. But how can you not say they are not native speakers?

    My partner raises our children with her Native language from another EU country, but it wont be as fluent as someone raised in that country as they live in an English speaking environment, non the less they would be considered native speakers.

    I know Gaeltacht native who use English words for certain things, because they dont know the Irish one, it doesn’t stop them being native speakers.

    You do meet very few native speakers at Irish events, some, but not many, which is a great pity as their Irish could ct as a bench mark.
    Instead there is criticism of Urban Irish and no attempt to interact with it, and maybe improve it through interaction.

    At the same time ive met speakers of Urban Irish who don’t want to sound like a bogger. The sounds they associate as bogger sounds are often the phonetic sounds of Irish.

    Maybe if more Urban Irish speakers felt that the gaeltacht Irish was also something which belonged to them and was important to them personally they might be more supportive of efforts to preserve the Gaeltachts.

    #44314
    Jonas
    Participant

    Depends on the region. Btw, many older people have learnt French at school because their first language was Breton, Alsacian, Languedocien, Corsican etc. In certain areas (West Indies, Polynesia…), many young people don’t speak French as their first language, but this doesn’t happen in Metropolitan France anymore because now 99,9999% of the parents speak French to their children, not a regional language even when they know one.

    That is a really strong tendency in France, I’ve noticed. Not just for minority languages, but for immigrants as well. I have several good friends whose parents are Italians, but none of them speak even a word of Italian. In my salsa class, there are quite a few girls whose parents are from Morocco, Algeria or other Arabic counties, but none of them speak Arabic. One of my colleague is a professor from Germany, and he also speaks only French with his kids.

    This is quite a contrast to me. I have many friends from back home who live abroad, and all of them speak Swedish with their kids. Likewise, I know several foreigners in Finland with small kids, and all of them speak their respective native languages with the kids. I would think it’s natural to speak your own language with your kids, but France seems to be the big exception.

    #44316
    Daithi Carr
    Participant

    With respect, but do any of you on here know anything at all about Hiberno-English? Anything at all? I doubt it.
    !

    Why do you doubt anybody here knows anything about Hiberno English ?

    #44319
    Daithi Carr
    Participant

    Jesus Carmanach your taking a very hostile and aggressive stance to anyone giving their opinion here and it seems that if it doesn’t fit your opinion they are open to derision by you.

    It is your opinion that people out side the Gaeltacht have nothing to give to the Irish language, particularly from leafier suburbs, dismissing anyone who does command a good level of Irish as a waste of time.
    You maintain there is no revival outside the Gaeltacht, despite the existence of a growing gaelscoil movement, which far from perfect shows a willingness to engage with the language, probably the single most important aspect in encouraging its use.

    You claim no one has any knowledge of Hiberno English , I am not sure on what grounds you make this claim and how your knowledge is so superior to the rest of us.

    So basically unless you can speak perfect Irish like yourself or have a vast and intimate knowledge of the nuances of Hiberno English their opinions are worthless?

    #44321
    Lughaidh
    Participant

    That is a really strong tendency in France, I’ve noticed. Not just for minority languages, but for immigrants as well. I have several good friends whose parents are Italians, but none of them speak even a word of Italian. In my salsa class, there are quite a few girls whose parents are from Morocco, Algeria or other Arabic counties, but none of them speak Arabic. One of my colleague is a professor from Germany, and he also speaks only French with his kids.

    in my experience, in the families of Northern African origin, when the parents weren’t born in France, most of the time the mother speaks mostly Arabic or Berber with their children, so they are bilingual. But there are exceptions — when the parents both speak French, they tend not to speak Arabic or Berber with their children.

    Btw that’s true that most French parents think that their children won’t speak proper French if they don’t speak French at home, and if they don’t speak French, they can’t find a job. Which is completely wrong — all French children learn perfect French, with no foreign accent, in no time thanks to school and to their fellow pupils, and of TV etc, whatever language they speak at home. Even when their parents speak no French or bad French. So they’d better speak their own language at home, at least their children would be bilingual and they would learn other languages more easily.

    #44323
    féabar
    Participant

    “To promote and teach the Irish language” is the Mission of this forum per the website. That should be the final purpose of our posts. This forum is not to hurl insults and grind out differences of non-native speakers of this language arguing about how and what native speakers should or should not do. I think it is telling that as far as I know there is only one native speaker in this conversation. That is very revealing. I’m not judging anyone, but it should be noted. Native speakers either don’t know about it, or, they know about it and don’t think it’s relevant or important, or they have some other reason to not participate in these discussions. I intimated in a previous post that if “native” Irish is to survive, then it is people that speak it that will desire and cause it to survive. No one else can do that. My farm is surrounded by many German-Texans who used to speak a form of German. My fence neighbor is a lady in her 80’s who has lost all of her friends who spoke her language. They have died out to the point where many like her no longer have anyone to speak it to. It is their own fault as they chose not to teach it to their children. I cannot do anything to “save” their language.

    I study Irish and love to speak the little bit that I am able to do. I have been stunned in the learning process at how critical and unsupportive many have been (all non-native speakers) to the learning process other than one guy in Teelin who criticized the Glance Card I was studying in his house. It is just plain weird and incredibly destructive. While trying to “perfect” it they are destroying the very thing they say they wish to preserve. I live in Texas, a bi-lingual state. MILLIONS of learners and children of native speakers here speak Spanish at a very rough level.(I am fluent) MILLIONS of people here speak English at a very rough level (some are native Texans and some are recent immigrants). The two languages have co-existed for a couple of hundred years, and native speakers and learners of both languages seem to enjoy just trying to communicate. I try to write here and on Facebook to encourage all those who have any interest in Irish to just jump in and learn something. (inevitably a non-native speaker jumps in and criticizes whatever learning resources are available). Something is better than nothing. Let me repeat that “Something is better than nothing”. “Perfect” gets in the way of “Good” and inhibits people to try new things in life. I am not advocating mediocrity so please don’t interpret my comments as such. I have accomplished much in my life with the help of God and hard work because I realized “good” is a necessary step to get to “excellent”. Let’s each try to do our part “to promote and teach the Irish Language” if we choose to enjoy this forum. Otherwise, I guess someone should start a forum called ” Forum for Communicating you know more about Irish, Hiberno-Irish, or Ireland itself”. We readers may indeed be mistaken, but some of these posts seem needlessly hostile. I mean they are REALLY hostile. I have in frustration attacked some of you here from time to time, and I may have been wrong in doing so. I just always imagine the genuine seeker who stumbles across us and surely leaves disgusted. That is a loss for them, a loss for us, and a loss for any interest on any level in the language. As for Hiberno-English, I will leave the experts to those who speak it. They obviously know as much about it as I do of my Texan dialect which is a form of native English as well.

    #44325
    féabar
    Participant

    Féabar, with all due respect to yourself, and I accept your bona fides completely, but is it not at all possible that I might have that teeny bit more experience of the situation here on the ground? Would you concede that that it is possible? Would you concede that what I say might have some basis in reality?

    Secondly, would you agree that it is unhealthy to stifle legitimate criticism and dissident viewpoints? Would you also agree that constantly ignoring the problems and only permitting a sort of rose-tinted view of the world doesn’t help much either?

    Few native speakers will come on here for two reasons: 1) few Gaeltacht people read or write in Irish on a regular basis and 2) this forum is specifically for learners of Irish so by definition most posters on here will be non-native speakers. The odd native speaker might take an interest in helping out learners (which is a wonderful thing) and go on line and help out but most won’t. That’s not a criticism of them. The factors involved are complex and this is not the right post to go into them in detail.

    Féabar, why not work with me in tackling the very real problems that we have? The problems are not insurmountable; I never claimed they were but attitudes do need to change. Burying our heads in the sand is not particularly helpful.

    I don’t know everything and never claimed to know everything. What I probably do have is, on the whole, a greater knowledge of the language itself and the sociolinguistics of it, than most, but not all, of the contributors on this site. I’m at my happiest helping people with grammar or vocabulary questions and anything else that comes up. And yes, there are people who know more about the language than me, both native and non-native speakers and yes, I bow to their superior knowledge.

    “Something is better than nothing” is very honourable but when the “something” stays jammed on “something” year in, year out, then someone has to ask why.

    My comments are not levelled at anyone in Texas learning Irish but to a certain group of people here in Ireland and how they view the language and its development. I happen by accident of circumstance to live in that particular world and to witness it everyday. That is where my comments come from.

    Carmanach: I think you need to go back and read my posts. I am not now and hopefully have not tried to quantify in any way what you do or don’t know about Irish, Ireland, etc. I would hope to heaven you know more than me at the very least. I am a Texan who only started learning some 4 years ago. You ask me to “concede” that, but no concession is needed as it is readily and happily admitted. I’m okay with that. That is why I come on here to learn. I think it is your tone that puzzles us. You seem hostile when you answer us or post things here. We’re not the enemy. We’re not the reason. (hey…we didn’t do it whatever it is!) I don’t even mind you giving a dire prediction however true if you believe Irish will be totally dead in X number of years. You may be absolutely correct. I just think the guy that started this thread was asking for a little encouragement. I know you must see some things “there on the ground” that encourage you. Maybe try to share some of those with us. If you can read census statistics your summations appear true. Maybe share if you think Irish is doomed, how it can still be a good topic to study and if so why. Maybe share with us what role it may still play in Ireland when it is done. Regarding “good” not being “good” enough over time. My mother took Spanish classes when I was a boy. Mom never got beyond the “good” of ordering a margarita and a plate of food at a Mexican restaurant, but mom at least exposed me to another language as best she could. She took lessons year after year and only remained “good”, but that was better than nothing. She would take me to her night lessons where I heard her learning. When I became fluent and worked as the only bi-lingual lawyer in my county, I think it pleased mother greatly to think that she had a part in that, and oh she so very much did. I am glad she at least got to “good”. As I said, I don’t promote mediocrity, but my comment was to encourage others just to give it a shot instead of just not ever trying. I appreciate that you’re there on the ground. With respect, Féabar

    #44326
    eadaoin
    Participant

    maith fear, féabar

    #44327
    Daithi Carr
    Participant


    I don’t dismiss anyone who has learned Irish to a high standard; I admire and encourage and help them, as many of my peers will attest to. But get this; very few indeed actually do get to that level and many just don’t want to.

    Great. The Gaelscoil movement. The future of the language is assured!

    But you Dismiss anyone who hasn’t learned it to a high standard but still tries to utilize what they have?
    I never said it was going to save Irish, I said it shows a enthusiasm for the language outside the Gaeltacht , something which you seem to dismiss as useless as its not up to a high standard. Rather than see how it could be improved upon.

    As to hiberno English


    With respect, but do any of you on here know anything at all about Hiberno-English? Anything at all? I doubt it.
    !

    maybe its not your intention but a lot of your post come across as very aggressive and all knowing, or at least superior to anyone who isint as intimately connected to the language. You seems you imply your point of view is more valid, because you’re on the ground. I’m equally on the ground , I lived all around Ireland, I currently live in the Gaeltacht and while I agree with you on some points I disagree on others. Just by being closer to events doesn’t necessary mean we see the same things or from the same angle.

    its your right to disagree, but to me at least your coming across quite aggressively which is frankly putting me off a topic i find interesting and will probably put others off as well .

    #44329
    Daithi Carr
    Participant

    Id agree that there is a good indication that the language is on course for dying out as the main community language in the strongest gaeltacht areas over the next few generations. Hopefully the realization of such will prompt some action. I feel something could be learned from the Gaelscoil movement, as in a grass roots upwards movement to revive Irish in the Gaeltacht , by its inhabitants.

    The Irish state seemed to have effectively abandoned its attempts to teach Irish by the 1960’s , rather than learn from where it failed.
    The number of schools through Irish had decreased massively. As the state was some what indifferent at best the quality of Irish required for teachers was and is fairly low. The Gaelscoil movement had to fight each step of the way for each single school and use the resources provided by a government who didnt seem keen on incurring any extra cost or enhancing the system.

    I think they have come to realize that there is a demand for Irish education, it would be nice to see some concrete efforts made to enhance and support this, such as better materials and a higher standard for teachers. Having teacher training taking place in the Gaeltacht as was supposed to happen in Baile Mhuirne (I think) along with encouraging the teaching of Dialects at the very least in and around where they are spoken would be one way the Galltacht could positively reinforce the value of Irish in the Gaeltacht.

    I cant really get in to the mind set of people who dismiss others as boggers or knackers and certainly not people who feel they dont want to “ape” the sounds of another language when they speak it. It feel a right fool if i spoke french with my strongest limerick accent.
    I dont know though could a standard version could be created with Irish phonetics that wouldn’t be too regional ?? or if it would even be worth doing.

    #44332
    eadaoin
    Participant

    I don’t feel a fool when I speak French partly with my Dublin accent – I know it’s not perfect, have to get more practice, (and my French accent isn’t too bad!).
    NO-ONE should feel a fool speaking any language imperfectly, if they’re doing the best they can!

    But at my advanced age, I’m always going to speak Irish, and other languages, with my native Dublin “blas” coming through! Even though I work on my slender “r” and my “ch”!
    We can all do with encouragement – there was a 6-year-old at our Irish group today, and she was so proud to join in on the easy bits – should I tell her she sounds too “Dublin”?

    eadaoin

    #44333
    Lughaidh
    Participant

    NO-ONE should feel a fool speaking any language imperfectly, if they’re doing the best they can!

    that’s the problem, many are happy with their bad Irish (and think bad Irish is ok), including teachers.

    We can all do with encouragement – there was a 6-year-old at our Irish group today, and she was so proud to join in on the easy bits – should I tell her she sounds too “Dublin”?

    not directly but you could help her to improve her pronunciation. Children learn fast and can reproduce strange sounds more easily than adults 😀 And they don’t get angry when someone correct them, unlike certain adults 😀

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