Gaeilge

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  • #44334
    Onuvanja
    Participant

    Personally, I find all the points of view voiced on this forum equally interesting and enriching. We come from different backgrounds, some of us live in Ireland, other overseas, some are (near-)native, others intermediate learners or beginners. But all of us take an interest in Irish and have made or are making an effort to learn it, each one of us in his or her own way. So all of us have a different experience and ideas or useful tips to share with others, regardless of our competence or ‘seniority’ in this pursuit. Some forum members like Dáithí and Féabar always humbly point out that their Irish is not perfect, but I invariably read their contributions with great interest and gain new insights from them. Maybe it’s because my Irish isn’t perfect either … 🙂

    #44335
    Jonas
    Participant

    “As to the Irish language, toleration and patronage have come too late. It cannot be saved alive by any human power. As a spoken language, it can hardly survive the present generation. The fathers and mothers will retain it until their death, but by the children it will be neglected and forgotten. The time for educating them in the native language has gone by forever. It is not the language of business, of modern civilisation, and will not enable a man to get on in the world. Its doom is inevitable.”

    That quote is more that 160 years old. It shows that the inevitable death of Irish within a generation or two has been predicted for a very long time already. Given that nobody can predict the future, I don’t really see the point. If anyone had predicted in 1985 that the Baltic states would soon be both independent and in the NATO, he would have been though mad, to take a non-linguistic example.

    #44341
    Jonas
    Participant

    Carmanach, it’s a bit difficult to understand your purpose here. It more or less seems to be to insist that Irish will definitely die out, and to argue with anyone who dares to think Irish may survive. We all know the saying “Are you here with the solution or are you part of the problem”.

    It’s a well-known sociolinguistic fact that repeating over and over that a language will die out (regardless of which language) reinforces language death. When speakers here that their language is doomed, they see little point in passing it on to their kids. I’m not saying one should run around spreading over-optimistic ideas either, of course, but unless one wishes to bring about the death of the Irish language, I can see no reason to constantly repeat that it is inevitable. Unless, of course, one has an alternative solution. So, Carmanach, you’ve repeatedly pointed out the problem. Now, do you have a solution?

    (I’m not trying to put words in anyone’s mouth here, I’m just trying to understand the purpose.)

    #44345
    féabar
    Participant

    “As to the Irish language, toleration and patronage have come too late. It cannot be saved alive by any human power. As a spoken language, it can hardly survive the present generation. The fathers and mothers will retain it until their death, but by the children it will be neglected and forgotten. The time for educating them in the native language has gone by forever. It is not the language of business, of modern civilisation, and will not enable a man to get on in the world. Its doom is inevitable.”

    That quote is more that 160 years old. It shows that the inevitable death of Irish within a generation or two has been predicted for a very long time already. Given that nobody can predict the future, I don’t really see the point. If anyone had predicted in 1985 that the Baltic states would soon be both independent and in the NATO, he would have been though mad, to take a non-linguistic example.

    http://www.mayococo.ie/lgdocuments/irish_docs/Staidéar-Cuimsitheach-Teangeolaíoch.pdf

    I can’t open the link you put up for us.

    #44346
    Jonas
    Participant

    “As to the Irish language, toleration and patronage have come too late. It cannot be saved alive by any human power. As a spoken language, it can hardly survive the present generation. The fathers and mothers will retain it until their death, but by the children it will be neglected and forgotten. The time for educating them in the native language has gone by forever. It is not the language of business, of modern civilisation, and will not enable a man to get on in the world. Its doom is inevitable.”

    That quote is more that 160 years old. It shows that the inevitable death of Irish within a generation or two has been predicted for a very long time already. Given that nobody can predict the future, I don’t really see the point. If anyone had predicted in 1985 that the Baltic states would soon be both independent and in the NATO, he would have been though mad, to take a non-linguistic example.

    http://www.mayococo.ie/lgdocuments/irish_docs/Staidéar-Cuimsitheach-Teangeolaíoch.pdf

    I can’t open the link you put up for us.

    Neither can I, but I read the report before. I found it very encouraging, it showed stronger Irish use than I had expected in a lot of Gaeltacht areas. This a link to the original study
    http://www.ahg.gov.ie/ie/Straiteis20BliaindonGhaeilge2010-2030/Foilseachain/Staidéar Cuimsitheach Teangeolaíoch ar Úsáid na Gaeilge sa Ghaeltacht (achoimre).pdf

    #44351
    Jonas
    Participant

    Can I make a suggestion?

    Can people (not everyone, some people on here) please stop attacking me personally and just focus on the points I raise. You may not like what I say, but that does not mean that it is false.

    Play the ball, people, not the man.

    Nobody is attacking you, not anymore than you are attacking others. You have spent a great deal of time highlighting the problem, and to take it upon yourself to tell everyone who believe in a revival that they are wrong. (I would agree that anyone thinking Ireland will ever again be an Irish-speaking country is wrong, I’m not challenging that point)

    So there, we are all aware of that problem. Now, do you have a solution to propose or not? If not, I ask again: what’s the purpose of your posts in this thread? You said in your first post you think Irish is doomed. I have no problem with that opinion, although I don’t necessarily share it. But if that is your point, why repeat it twenty times? Surely you can understand that others perceive that you think them stupid if the impression you give is that you don’t think we’ve understood that point.

    With respect, Jonas, have you ever read this document or studied the conclusions it makes?

    Yes, I have. And with due respect in return, I believe to know a thing or two about the Gaeltachtaí and about sociolinguistics in general, so could I suggest that you drop the attitude of being the expert. I am not denying your considerable knowledge for a minute. Far from it, I think it is extremely valuable. It just might be a good idea to stop writing as if everybody else knows less than you. That might not be your intention, but it appears that’s the impression most people get.


    Jonas: Was Lithuanian ever reduced to 15,000 daily speakers?

    No, and I never said anything even remotely similar.

    #44352
    féabar
    Participant

    Carmanach: Very interesting and honest analysis. I have only spent two summer stints in what is called the Gaeltacht and I was quite surprised at how reluctant, unable, or indifferent most people were to even speak Irish in those places other than the families with whom I stayed. I was surprised because those areas are the supposed areas where the Irish Language is cherished and protected. Perhaps they didn’t understand what I was saying, but it’s not too hard to figure out: “Dia duit! agus Cad é mar atá tú?” etc. They usually answer me in English and say, “I’m sorry, I really don’t speak Irish”. It makes it seem like there is a lot of pretense or dishonesty or something about Irish-Speaking numbers of people, but I do not know. I recently saw a map that Benjamin Burroughs posted on Facebook that showed what he called the “Fhior Gaeltacht” now. You could barely see any color (it was in green in the Gaeltacht) at all. I always watch his travels as he’s an enthusiastic Irish speaking traveler. He goes all over Ireland to the various Gaeltachtaí and he usually talks about the Irish speakers he finds in terms of a few families or a person or two he might meet in a pub (or NOBODY) within what is called a Gaeltacht. And, he’s the kind of guy that’s out there talking to anyone and everyone in Irish. I asked him how many everyday fluent Irish speakers he thinks there are in Ireland and he said 100,000. I realize that is a number he might have pulled out of his hat (or elsewhere) but it seems grossly overstated given the “communities” he himself reports back to as having been visited and having found handfuls of Irish-Speakers. I think maybe the 26,000 or whatever someone put here might be way more realistic if not an exaggeration in itself. That is astonishing given the fact that I live in a sparsely populated rural county in Texas that has about the same population. As you point out, that doesn’t appear to be a critical mass of any kind. It doesn’t change the fact that I’m having fun with the language and value it as part of my cultural journey, and hope to improve upon it as time goes by. But it does adjust my thinking as to any real use of it in a community setting. I still couldn’t read the thread so if someone could email me the PDF document I would enjoy having the opportunity to read it.

    #44358
    Jonas
    Participant

    “No, and I never said anything even remotely similar.”

    But did you not suggest that Lithuanian was at one stage on the brink of dying out in Lithuania and were you not comparing that to the situation of Irish? I’ve asked you at least twice for details on how Lithuanian came back from that brink. I mentioned the figure to try and see was Lithuanian ever in such a similar dire situation as Irish is today.

    My bad, I must have expressed myself badly. The point I was trying to make was a general one, that it is hard to predict the future of languages. It’s of course also hard to predict the future of different areas, as for instance in the fact that Uíbh Rathach was more solidly Irish-speaking than Corca Dhuibhne when censuses began.

    It never even crossed my mind that Irish from today’s situation would become the only language of Ireland, so if I didn’t specifically point that out, it’s because I think it self-evident.

    #44359
    Jonas
    Participant

    Carmanach: Very interesting and honest analysis. I have only spent two summer stints in what is called the Gaeltacht and I was quite surprised at how reluctant, unable, or indifferent most people were to even speak Irish in those places other than the families with whom I stayed. I was surprised because those areas are the supposed areas where the Irish Language is cherished and protected.

    Could I ask where you were? I find it quite surprising, because I don’t remember that ever happening to me in what I would call a real Gaeltacht. Then again, it’s of course what would be expected in “Gaeltacht”-places like Bearna, Baile Bhuirne or Gaoth Saile where almost nobody speaks the language at home. Though I wouldn’t really consider those places Gaeltachtaí.


    As you point out, that doesn’t appear to be a critical mass of any kind. It doesn’t change the fact that I’m having fun with the language and value it as part of my cultural journey, and hope to improve upon it as time goes by. But it does adjust my thinking as to any real use of it in a community setting. I still couldn’t read the thread so if someone could email me the PDF document I would enjoy having the opportunity to read it.

    I guess it goes without saying that the motives for learning Irish are always different than the motives for many other languages. Apart from my native Swedish, the only three languages in which I feel completely fluent (meaning I can express what I want in all situations) are English, French and Italian. Those are languages I learned because I needed them, having lived extended periods in areas where those three languages are spoken, and where most people don’t speak any other language. It took me less than six month to become better in Italian than I had become in Irish during ten years – because I was really surrounded by the language in every sense.

    So no, Irish doesn’t have that critical mass, Irish monoglots are extremely rare (though I’ve met the odd ones) and even if you gathered all daily Irish speakers together, they would still be fewer in number than daily French speakers just in Montauban or daily Italian speakers just in Crotone – and then Montauban and Crotone are usually seen as sleepy backwaters in France and in Italy respectively. Even if the unthinkable happened and tomorrow every person in Ireland woke up as a fluent Irish speaker dedicated to living their lives in Ireland, it would still be fare less than just the population of Greater Paris or Greater Milan. Ireland is a small country, where only a small percentage are daily Irish speakers. That is the reality of it, and our motives to learn Irish are different than usual motives to learn languages.

    But those motives need not be bad. People of Irish descent may wish to speak the language of their ancestors. People interested in mythology might be interested in reading the largest collection of European mythology in its original language. People who learn about the extraordinary books from the Blasket Islands (extraordinary in the sense of witnesses to way of life long gone in Europe) may want to be able to read them. People might want to read Irish poetry in Irish, just as I wanted to read Dante in Italian. Or people might want to spend some time in the areas where Irish actually still is spoken. Few though they may be, they still exist.

    #44362
    Daithi Carr
    Participant

    And could you and “most people” please stop making out that I am claiming to be the sole “expert” in the country who knows everything and anything about the Irish language. It’s really tiring. And yes, I probably do know more than most people on here but not more than anyone else in Ireland on this issue. That does not make me arrogant for saying that.

    Jonas, how long have you ever actually spent in Ireland, I mean actually lived here? I’ve been here all my life, 37 years.
    .

    Is that not very presumptuous to think you know more than most people here, just because your Irish and in Ireland. There is a huge swathe of People in Ireland who haven’t a clue and don’t give a shit about Irish. Just being here doesn’t make their opinion any more valid. If your interested ,researched it and had some experiance of it your opinion is equally valid.

    I’m live here , in the Gaeltacht , my opinion differes in a number of ways from you and I don’t assertain it’s because I’m some how more informed , but I see things from a different view point.

    #44365
    Daithi Carr
    Participant

    I am trying to focus on the issue I just find it hard to focus when anyone’s opinion can be utterly dismissed due to the holder not being as “qualified” as people who disagrees with them.

    Two equally qualified and experienced people can look at the same thing and draw different conclusions.

    I feel that any point should be challenged with why or what information they believe refutes the original position. Not that a certain view should be deemed correct due to the experiance of the person who makes it.

    I can’t see any point in my continuing with the discussion if you see my objection to such a method of validating an opinion as a personal attack , rather than an objection to the manner in which other non conforming views are utterly dismissed.

    #44367
    Lughaidh
    Participant

    Ideology and politics start to override linguistics; people confidently state that Irish is their native language even though they have to attend classes and read books and go to conversation groups to learn it; native English speakers don’t need to do any courses in English to have a basic conversation with their neighbours. Most urban Irish speakers struggle with Irish grammar and few master the pronunciation. Some genuinely want to learn these; others don’t or can’t. These are very painful things to admit and so one might hear them say: “But I’m not from the Gaeltacht! I don’t have to speak like them!”
    It would be odd indeed to hear a student of French exclaim: “I’m not from France! I don’t have to speak like someone from Paris! I want to speak Donnybrook French!”

    😆

    #44370
    Jonas
    Participant

    You’re doing it again! Look, if what I’m saying is complete and utter cobblers, then please tell me what part of it is complete and utter cobblers!

    I cannot speak for Daithi, but personally I think most of the facts you say are absolutely correct. The “problem”, if that’s the word, is that you seem to have an argument with people who prefer their hobby Irish and anglophone pronunciation. I support you in that argument – but I guess everybody here supports you, right? So if we all agree that Irish as spoken by Gaeltacht speakers is the best form of Irish, then perhaps we can move past that? Unless someone disagrees, of course.

    You wrote earlier that this is an American site. It is. Then again, look at some of the most active members. Daithi currently lives in the Gaeltacht. Both Lughaidh and I live in France, but both of us have lived for longer periods in the Gaeltacht. If we look at the posts written in the last weeks, at least half of them are from people who live or have lived in the Gaeltacht, and it would appear that all of them are from people who much prefer Gaeltacht Irish over Anglo-Irish. So nothing you say is complete and utter cobblers, but you seem to have an argument with Dublin people preferring their own Irish and with outsiders with no knowledge of the Gaeltacht. Fair enough, but that is not the people you’re discussing with here.

    #44372
    Jonas
    Participant

    You’re doing it again! Look, if what I’m saying is complete and utter cobblers, then please tell me what part of it is complete and utter cobblers!

    I cannot speak for Daithi, but personally I think most of the facts you say are absolutely correct. The “problem”, if that’s the word, is that you seem to have an argument with people who prefer their hobby Irish and anglophone pronunciation. I support you in that argument – but I guess everybody here supports you, right? So if we all agree that Irish as spoken by Gaeltacht speakers is the best form of Irish, then perhaps we can move past that? Unless someone disagrees, of course.

    You wrote earlier that this is an American site. It is. Then again, look at some of the most active members. Daithi currently lives in the Gaeltacht. Both Lughaidh and I live in France, but both of us have lived for longer periods in the Gaeltacht. If we look at the posts written in the last weeks, at least half of them are from people who live or have lived in the Gaeltacht, and it would appear that all of them are from people who much prefer Gaeltacht Irish over Anglo-Irish. So nothing you say is complete and utter cobblers, but you seem to have an argument with Dublin people preferring their own Irish and with outsiders with no knowledge of the Gaeltacht. Fair enough, but that is not the people you’re discussing with here.

    My argument is that you cannot revive a language if people can’t speak it. If everyone on here supports me, they’ve got a funny way of showing it! I am not talking about problems within the Gaeltacht. That would require a whole new thread. The OP referred to the Gaelscoileanna and the revival. The Gaelscoileanna have nothing to do with the Gaeltacht. I stand by my earlier remarks that the language stands or falls in the Gaeltacht.

    I know that not everyone on here is American and I stated as much earlier on. However, there are people posting here or just following the thread who may not know all that much about either the Gaeltacht or the “revival” in the Galltacht. I took the example of Dublin but the same holds true for any part of the Galltacht. I mentioned my own home place for example but it’s more acute in Dublin.

    I’ve no beef with individuals doing their best and who have the humility to admit it. Anyone will tell you that my door is always open when people need help. What I am saying is that a revival on a large scale cannot be built if the majority of learners can’t speak the language well. I’m also referring to the classism and anti-rural bias of certain circles of urban learners in Ireland who think Irish is their ideological plaything and use some very bizarre logic to dismiss native-spoken Irish. Some of the comments I’ve heard made about Gaeltacht people were quite unnecessary. Dáithí himself even mentioned them in an earlier post; he mentioned people who didn’t want to sound like “boggers”.That attitude is not uncommon among learners in Ireland (in Ireland. I’m not speaking about America or anywhere else).

    There is a complete disconnect between the Galltacht learners and Gaeltacht Irish. A guy I know went to see a play in Irish and then afterwards in the pub started bitching about how he couldn’t understand it because it was in Conamara Irish with Conamara actors. He said that the play shouldn’t even have been staged if “no one” could understand it. And he’s by no means alone in those views. Imagine a student of French going to a play in French with French actors and then complaining afterwards because he couldn’t understand any of it! The same guy also hates sean-nós singing. “I can’t understand any of it! How is that helping the language!”

    Another attitude I’ve heard a few times is this: “Ah, sure, the Gaeltacht will be dead soon anyway! Big deal!” and this golden nugget: “I’ve never heard of that word! You must be making all of this up!!!” Indeed, someone did once write a letter into Foinse years ago complaining about one of the regular columnists, a Gaeltacht man: “It’s not in my dictionary! He must be making it up!”

    Another genius came out with this pearl of wisdom: “Gaeltacht speakers don’t speak An Caighdeán Oifigiúil, the proper Irish! They lack terms for modern technology!!!”

    I hear and read that sort of nonsense on a regular basis.

    I couldn’t agree more.

    #44381
    Daithi Carr
    Participant

    I am trying to focus on the issue I just find it hard to focus when anyone’s opinion can be utterly dismissed due to the holder not being as “qualified” as people who disagrees with them.

    Two equally qualified and experienced people can look at the same thing and draw different conclusions.

    I feel that any point should be challenged with why or what information they believe refutes the original position. Not that a certain view should be deemed correct due to the experiance of the person who makes it.

    I can’t see any point in my continuing with the discussion if you see my objection to such a method of validating an opinion as a personal attack , rather than an objection to the manner in which other non conforming views are utterly dismissed.

    You’re doing it again! Look, if what I’m saying is complete and utter cobblers, then please tell me what part of it is complete and utter cobblers!

    I never said or even implied anything you said is such. I merely pointed out that maintaining your position is correct due to being in Ireland and assuming you know more than most here doesn’t add validity to your argument and out of hand dismisses any other view on the grounds that they don’t know as much as you.

    I agree with a lot of what your saying , but don’t necessarily think its the entire picture. For example I wouldn’t completely dismiss those who use and learn Irish outside the Gaeltacht. It’s by no means perfect but it’s an area the language is growing. You can’t blame everyone for not having Gaeltacht Blas when what they have heard and been taught as correct throughout their life is a version of Irish from teachers who aren’t proficient in it and crucially not required to be. Many believe they have learnt standard Irish and not a colloqial form.
    Of learners who dismiss gaeltacht Irish for what ever reason I never personally find it in more than 3-4 in 20 hold that view. Many others are keen to learn a dialect , of course I’ve come across learners in class complaining of learning anything from what they perceive to be the correct Irish.

    As Galltacht Irish grows I think efforts could and should be made to improve it. A lot of speakers make genuine efforts to speak good Irish, but they can only be as good as the Irish they encounter and with so many people who would be viewed as the best Irish speakers, like teachers, having poor Irish, the bar is being set very low.

    I think the goverment has in many ways suppressed the dialects, labeling them as wrong in the face of standard Irish. I’m sure it was just easier to make one syllabus etc, rather than creat numerous versions. But not having a body of native speakers of standard Irish to draw from they have had no obvious point of referance for learning their “correct” Irish.

    At the very least the county’s which still have Gaeltachts should be taught and learning their dialect. I know of people brought up in and around Gaeltachts who were taught standard Irish , The local version not being accepted in class as the tests were standard. So obviously there will be some disconnect .

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