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A chairde,
Already 12 years ago I had the idea to do a good, extensive course in Corca Dhuibhne Irish. Obviously not for the money – not a huge market for courses in Irish, and most people want an easy course that let them parrot a few phrases without “bothering” with grammar and a total vocabulary of perhaps 500-600 words but lots of flashy colours… The kind of language courses most people like but we language enthusiasts hate 😉
Back in the days, I was thinking of the opposite. A very thorough course, at least 50-60 chapters, a vocabulary of 2000-3000 words, and ample illustrations and explanations of all points of Irish grammar. Kind of like Learning Irish, but even more extensive. The idea was that it would be the only course you’d need. Of course no course can be a substitute for spending long time in the Gaeltacht, but I wanted a course that would be so complete in terms of grammar and so extensive in term of vocabulary that a learner who had mastered it all would really be able to both talk and read Irish.
Now, I didn’t just have that idea, I actually started writing it. Came quite far, though nowhere near finished, but now I thought I should perhaps attempt to finish it… From the beginning, it was clear to me that it would be a course in Corca Dhuibhne Irish. Not only is it the Irish I like the most, it’s also the only Irish I know and so the only Irish in which I could write a course.
The thing I’m wondering now is just how Corca Dhuibhne to make it. Could I ask for your opinions on a few examples? I appreciate any and every answer!!
1. I of course go for the Corca Dhuibhne pronunciation. But should I go fo [u:] or [o:] when ó stands next to a nasal? Both are authentic in the Corca Dhuibhne Gaeltacht. I use [u:] myself cause that’s what people in Dún Chaoin and western Dún Urlann do and it’s from them I learned my Irish. Then again, more people in Corca Dhuibhne use [o:] and that is easier for learners as it reflects the spelling.
2. As for the verbs, I of course use the Munster forms in the present and the past (táim, bhíos, bhíodar) but I hesitate in the future. The older forms (bead, beir, beam) are more authentic, but beidh mé, beidh tú, beimíd are the more common forms in Corca Dhuibhne these days. I will introduce both options, of course, since anyone who come into contact with Corca Dhuibhne Irish will encounter both options and need to know about them, but which one to focus more on and use in dialogues?
3. The copula is a bith of a minefield because of all the variation in Corca Dhuibhne.
He is a teacher. Well, easy enough. Múinteoir is ea é, alternatively Is múinteoir é. Any learner needs to know both. But then…
He was a teacher. In good Corca Dhuibhne Irish, this could be Múinteoir ab ea é, or Múinteoir abh ea é , or Múinteoir dob ea é and the more standard Ba mhúinteoir é should probably also be known. Would not this just confuse even the dedicated learner?4. Staying with the copula, now saying He is the teacher. One could say Is é an múinteoir é. It’s standard, it’s good Irish in Corca Dhuibhne and it’s used in the rest of Munster. Then again, a good speaker in Corca Dhuibhne would be more likely to say An múinteoir is é é.
These are just some examples of questions I’m struggling with. Both Ó Sé and Sjoestedt-Jonval have given complete descriptions of the Irish of the area, particularly Ó Sé did a splendid job of covering all the variation. That’s great in a linguistic reference grammar, and I would of course refer users of my course (should there ever be any) to consult that grammar. But for a course… how much should be included and just how dialectal should it be? I’m not going to include anything that isn’t Corca Dhuibhne Irish, but I’m leaning towards using the more widespread versions when there is variation within Corca Dhuibhne and one of the varieties is also found elsewhere while the other is purely local.
Once again, all thoughts are more than welcome!!
Hi
I understand the problems you meet 🙂
This is the choice I would make : choose the most common forms that are used in the dialect now (apart from influence of school Irish — we should try to keep alive what is typical of the dialect), and if 2 forms are equally common, teach both, or teach the one that is the closest to the standard.
Ie: choose what learners are most likely to hear from native speakers when they go to Corca Dhuibhne 🙂
You can make an appendix at the end of the book, to show what are the variants that exist, but more rarely used…Btw, I’d love to make a Gaoth Dobhair version of your learning book when it’s finished, if you’re ok 🙂
Hi
I understand the problems you meet 🙂
This is the choice I would make : choose the most common forms that are used in the dialect now (apart from influence of school Irish — we should try to keep alive what is typical of the dialect), and if 2 forms are equally common, teach both, or teach the one that is the closest to the standard.
Ie: choose what learners are most likely to hear from native speakers when they go to Corca Dhuibhne 🙂
You can make an appendix at the end of the book, to show what are the variants that exist, but more rarely used…Btw, I’d love to make a Gaoth Dobhair version of your learning book when it’s finished, if you’re ok 🙂
Good advice, I like the appendix part. It would allow me to keep focused in the chapters, but still include varieties that people would encounter.
You’d be more than welcome to make a Gaoth Dobhair version of it 🙂 Perhaps I could send you a few chapters in 2-3 weeks and you could say what you think of it. I don’t really work chapter by chapter, but rather topic by topic so right now I don’t have any chapter that is completely finished but lots of chapters that are anywhere between half-finished to almost finished.
…so right now I don’t have any chapter that is completely finished but lots of chapters that are anywhere between half-finished to almost finished.Jonas, I’d love to have a look at it, no matter what state it is in. I think it would be best to have what a good speaker from Corca Dhuibhne would say. So Múinteoir is é é, even though Is é an múinteoir é is accepted.
Accepted forms, other Munster variants could simply be mentioned in brackets or something similar.
This is often what is done in Ancient Greek textbooks, which tend to focus on one dialect, but mention very common variants from related dialects that “should be known”.
I must finish my pdf on copula variants in Munster (I made it for my own self-study), I could give you a look when I’m finished.The Comharchumann teach a course of sorts in the dialect but I know little about it. Might be no harm to drop Máire Ní Scannláin a line.
I loved it at any rate. For anybody considering these courses, there are essentially two courses. A conversation course (Intermediate/Advanced) and a course studying the literature of Corca Dhuibhne. The mornings consist of vocabulary building and grammar study for the conversation classes. For the literature class one reads selections of Pádraig Ua Maoileoin, the Blasket writers, Pádraig Ó Fiannachta and others, with comments on unusual words and grammar. The afternoons consist of various activities, talks from seanachaithe, talks about poetic meters, conversation circles and stuff like that.
The advanced conversation class and the literature class are essentially classes in the Irish of Corca Dhuibhne.
A chairde,
Already 12 years ago I had the idea to do a good, extensive course in Corca Dhuibhne Irish. Obviously not for the money – not a huge market for courses in Irish, and most people want an easy course that let them parrot a few phrases without “bothering” with grammar and a total vocabulary of perhaps 500-600 words but lots of flashy colours… The kind of language courses most people like but we language enthusiasts hate 😉
Sounds like a great idea, Jonas. I know little about the dialect, so can’t recommend you which forms to keep, but I would agree that if it’s a course in that particular dialect, use the dialect grammar only and don’t mix it with the Standard. You might add a footnote in order to point out the corresponding Standard form, so that the learner would know what to expect. But having learnt most of my Irish from O’Siadhail’s book, I can assure you that there’s nothing easier than moving from the dialect on to the Standard, as you’re bound to come across Standard Irish and other dialects in other sources as you learn. What I’m less enthusiastic about is transforming the whole spelling to suit the dialect, for example, writing “soibhir” instead of “saibhir”, like O’Siadhaildoes at times.This way you never know if the spelling you use is also valid in the Standard. By the way, does your method use dialogues or is it a “reader” like “Learning lrish”?
1. I of course go for the Corca Dhuibhne pronunciation. But should I go fo [u:] or [o:] when ó stands next to a nasal? Both are authentic in the Corca Dhuibhne Gaeltacht. I use [u:] myself cause that’s what people in Dún Chaoin and western Dún Urlann do and it’s from them I learned my Irish. Then again, more people in Corca Dhuibhne use [o:] and that is easier for learners as it reflects the spelling.
2. As for the verbs, I of course use the Munster forms in the present and the past (táim, bhíos, bhíodar) but I hesitate in the future. The older forms (bead, beir, beam) are more authentic, but beidh mé, beidh tú, beimíd are the more common forms in Corca Dhuibhne these days. I will introduce both options, of course, since anyone who come into contact with Corca Dhuibhne Irish will encounter both options and need to know about them, but which one to focus more on and use in dialogues?
3. The copula is a bith of a minefield because of all the variation in Corca Dhuibhne.
He is a teacher. Well, easy enough. Múinteoir is ea é, alternatively Is múinteoir é. Any learner needs to know both. But then…
He was a teacher. In good Corca Dhuibhne Irish, this could be Múinteoir ab ea é, or Múinteoir abh ea é , or Múinteoir dob ea é and the more standard Ba mhúinteoir é should probably also be known. Would not this just confuse even the dedicated learner?4. Staying with the copula, now saying He is the teacher. One could say Is é an múinteoir é. It’s standard, it’s good Irish in Corca Dhuibhne and it’s used in the rest of Munster. Then again, a good speaker in Corca Dhuibhne would be more likely to say An múinteoir is é é.
!
1) I’m sure you’re aware of An Chanúint Bheag vs An Chanúint Mhór. Why not choose one or the other [o:] or [u:] but explain that the other is also used?
2) The analytic ones if they are the more common with a note on the synthentic forms. Do they even say “Ba mhúinteoir é” in CD? I’ve never heard that but who knows?
3) I’d say “múinteoir ab ea é” would be grand. Is “dob ea” and “abh ea” more common in Dún Chaoin?
4) An múinteoir is é é
Might be no harm to focus on the more widespread features but also provide notes showing the alternatives.
I’m familiar with the dialect and Ó Sé. Ó Sé is great but the book isn’t about Corca Dhuibhne Irish. It’s about the Irish of the parish of Dún Chaoin. The sections on the phonology at the start could be developed but that may need a separate book to do it justice. Overall, very good indeed, but it’s hard to cover an entire living dialect in one book and I’m always hearing things on the radio which contradict received wisdom. I heard pionta with an /i/ à la Conamara from Jim Begley, Seosaimhín’s uncle on Cartlann Bhóthar na Léinsí a few weeks ago.
Is LASID any good, I wonder? I hear Croí Cainnte Chiarraighe is being worked on by someone in Limerick.
1. Good point, and I’m leaning towards using [o:] even though I don’t use it in my own speech – but to mention in the section on pronunciation that some speakers use [u:]
2. No, I haven’t heard it either. That’s why I added it to the discussion, as an example of a form that is common elsewhere but not in CD. I would never use it as the main form, but I wondered whether to mention it. Lughaid’s idea about an appendix is good, I would stick common forms that people are likely to encounter, but which aren’t used in CD, in the appendix.
3. I really cannot say much about the frequency, but my gut feeling is that “múinteoir ab ea é” is the most common. Again, I might give only that one, and use the appendix both for variety inside CD as well as some of the most common non-CD forms.
Very much liked your idea about a word list that lists words that differ. “Meach” immediately comes to mind, as I once had a long discussion about bees with a speaker from Cúil Aodha. 🙂
By the way, does your method use dialogues or is it a “reader” like “Learning lrish”?
Excellent question. I’d like to have dialogues, perhaps with the occasional text. Have to admit that is by far the hardest part. I teach university courses and write academic articles for a living, so writing about grammatical features and explaining them is not that hard. Writing dialogues is something completely different – particularly as the dialogues should not really contain grammar that hasn’t yet been introduced. So the final dialogues are easy, anything beyond chapter 20 is no real worry in that regard (though still not that easy to write dialogues in any language). The real problem are the first chapters. In general, I introduce two grammatical concepts in each chapter. The first chapters introduces the definite article (only for singular masculine nouns, I talk about gender in the second chapter) the lack of an indefinite article, and tá. If anyone knows how to write an entertaining dialogue using sentences like Táim anso, Tá an fear ansan, Tá bia ann… Well, I’m all ears 😉
I think it would be GREAT if you decide to do this! For years, Learning Irish was the only book available for people who wanted to learn actual native Irish as it is spoken in the Gaeltacht. I personally think that Learning Irish is one of the most boring, soul-destroying books that I have ever had the displeasure of running across. But it became a very big seller simply because there was nothing else out there for people who didn’t want to learn “standard”. Your book would be a huge breakthrough for Munster Irish, with positive effects that could hardly be understated.
I’ve got a few small suggestions:
1. I think it’s fine to go with the [u:] sound as long as you mention the fact that [o:] is widely used and is quite correct. I personally think that authenticity is more important than how widespread something happens to be. So, teaching the actual dialect of Dún Chaoin and Dún Urlann would be brilliant!
2. I think you should definitely use bead, beir, beam, etc. because synthetic verbs like these are in use and are the authentic forms of the actual dialect. Stuff like “beidh mé” should be mentioned, of course, but the main focus should be on traditional usage.
3. The same goes for the copula – use the form that is most authentic while being sure to mention the other forms that learners will run across.
4. Go ahead and use An múinteoir is é é while also mentioning Is é an múinteoir é.
I wouldn’t worry too much about using variant spellings. They shouldn’t be a problem at all, as long as they are to be found in Ó Dónaill’s dictionary (or at least in Dinneen’s). Of course, whenever you use a variant, it’s okay to mention the “standard” spelling, too.
Okay, now here’s where I might sound a little ridiculous: As you mentioned, you are not trying to make money from this book – it is a labour of love. This will be apparent to the learners who are using this book – Small details will make a big difference:
Make it with a spiral binding so that the book lies flat; this will make it much easier for people who are poring over the lessons.
Add illustrations. Even the simple line drawings in Buntús Cainte made the book much more readable and interesting.
Don’t scrimp on exercises and examples. There should be plenty of examples to look at and lots of exercises to work on.
Dialogs are nice and give the learner a good sense of what an actual conversation would sound like.
Leave helpful notes, hints and relevant facts about the subject. And don’t be afraid to be witty and funny! It’s perfectly alright if your book is fun and interesting for learners. 🙂
Sound files by fluent native speakers are super-important. The more sound files the better!
A good thorough glossary in the back of the book is always nice.
If I think of anything else, I’ll let ya know. 🙂
1) Actually, I think Brian Ó Cuív in Irish Dialects and Irish Speaking Districts mentions [u:] (which is pretty universal in East Munster, if I’m not mistaken) in the Déise and Dún Chaoin. An acquaintance of mine who is a very fine scholar indeed of Munster Irish reckons that “Déiseachas” (for want of a better word) was used in a band stretching from the Déise of west Waterford and south Tipperary right up though Limerick and even into north Kerry and streching on into Clare. Many of what we call “Déise features” today also pop up in Kilkenny and Wexford in south Leinster. My friend also mentions placenames from north Kerry and west Limerick which show clear “Déiseachas” but I can’t remember what they were (damn you, memory!).
If you don’t mind, what were the Déise features found in Wexford and how far into the county did they extend?
Re the OP –
Lughaidh mentions possibly making a Gaoth Dobhair version. Wouldn’t it be amazing if versions were produced for every sub-dialect (including those areas barely surviving like NW Mayo) 🙂
A fantasy, perhaps.
I’ve heard from others who did courses in the Comharchumann and heartily recommended them. They seem to be on top of their game. They also have a conversation circle and blog with Toose Mac Gearailt where you’ll hear some wonderful Irish: http://ceiliuradh.wordpress.com/http://ceiliuradh.wordpress.com/Thanks for that! It was actually Toose who told me about the use of the past subjunctive I mentioned on the other thread.
Since we’re talking about features of Corca Dhuibhne Irish, originally Irish used the verb tiomáin to refer to
driving horses and comáin for other animals. Corca Dhuibhne uses comáin today to refer to driving a car
and cairt for car, so we get:
Táim ag comáint na cairte I’m driving the car.
Is it not “comáint”?Indeed it is! Fixed.
Some examples from Peadair Ua Laoghaire (AR), quoted by Ó Cadhlaigh, and Amhlaoibh Ó Luínse (SAL):
Dá mba ná déanfidís ach a raibh de bhuaibh agus de chapailibh san áit do chomáint leo, bheadh creach ana mhór acu; If all they were to do was, (AR:81) (GNG:592),
Tadhscán coirce (tímpal leath-chloch) a chrotha trí chois mhuar mhóna: na muca chomáint isteach inti; Scatter a quantity of oats (about a half stone) through the base of a large stack of turf: drive the pigs into it, (SAL:71)
nuair a raghadh rud thar teorainn ar dhuine ní dhéanfadh sé ach iad a chomáint uaig thar n-ais; when something would stray over someone’s boundary ditch all he would do is drive them (cattle) back over, (SAL:15),
ach iad a chomáint uait; but to drive them (cattle) away from you, (SAL:15)The first example above would seem to show that Ua Laoghaire used “comáint” for horses also.
I think they were probably conflated a long time ago, not sure when. In Classical Irish that was the distinction.
Jonas, I just wanted to say that this is a great idea! If you want any beta-testers I’d be happy
to help! 🙂That’s interesting stuff Carmanach, thanks.
1) Actually, I think Brian Ó Cuív in Irish Dialects and Irish Speaking Districts mentions [u:] (which is pretty universal in East Munster, if I’m not mistaken) in the Déise and Dún Chaoin. An acquaintance of mine who is a very fine scholar indeed of Munster Irish reckons that “Déiseachas” (for want of a better word) was used in a band stretching from the Déise of west Waterford and south Tipperary right up though Limerick and even into north Kerry and streching on into Clare. Many of what we call “Déise features” today also pop up in Kilkenny and Wexford in south Leinster. My friend also mentions placenames from north Kerry and west Limerick which show clear “Déiseachas” but I can’t remember what they were (damn you, memory!).
If you don’t mind, what were the Déise features found in Wexford and how far into the county did they extend?
While Wexford shows definite Munster features such as /Å‹’/ in -inn (The Bing of Rosslare < Binn, etc), /ou/ in sceall < steall, etc., vocalisation of intervocalic /v/ - searús < searbhas, etc, it also showed Connachta (and even Ulster-like) features.
As I understand it, the “boundary” between what we’d now call (East) Munster Irish and the Irish of central Leinster, which was closer to Connacht Irish, passed somewhere through Wexford.
I’d imagine it would be difficult to determine which dialect was most widespread.
One very Munster-sounding placename right up in northern Wexford (not far from Gorey) does comes to mind though – Craanford/Áth an Chorráin.I wouldn’t worry too much about using variant spellings. They shouldn’t be a problem at all, as long as they are to be found in Ó Dónaill’s dictionary (or at least in Dinneen’s). Of course, whenever you use a variant, it’s okay to mention the “standard” spelling, too.
True. If the variant is mentioned in a standard dictionary or commonly accepted in texts written in the dialect, there’s nothing to worry about. However, I’ve never seen “cineál” spelt as “cionál” or “arán” as “rán”, although that’s how they are pronounced in Connemara. Neither would I recommend spelling “luí” as “loighe” or “níos laige” as “níos loige”, which is what O’Siadhail does in his otherwise excellent book. On the other hand, I would use dialect spellings for Munster words like “neomat” and “fanúint” which differ too much from Standard Irish. So, my theory isn’t quite consistent, I’m afraid. 🙂
I think Wee Falorie Man is also right in that illustrations can be very helpful, for example, for memorising certain points of grammar. Perhaps there are professional or budding artists in our ranks who would be willing to lend their hand with your project?
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