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Except for the “matching English” part. What does English have to do with it?
I think they wanted to draw the distinction between “to” and “from” because that’s how it is in English. There are lots of examples, I think, where “standard” Irish does this. For example, (and I hope that somebody will correct me if I’m wrong on this!), I was told that the counting system that is currently taught in schools is actually a revived system from several centuries ago that was no longer in use; I was told that it was revived specifically because it more closely matched the system that is used in English as opposed to the system that was in use at the time – of course, this system is still in use, but is much rarer now. I was also told that words like áintín and uncail were not used by native speakers until they were taught as “standard” in schools. Hopefully someone who has actually researched this, can give a more definite answer; I’m only mentioning what I’ve been told.
I was told that the counting system that is currently taught in schools is actually a revived system from several centuries ago that was no longer in use; I was told that it was revived specifically because it more closely matched the system that is used in English as opposed to the system that was in use at the time – of course, this system is still in use, but is much rarer now.
that’s right. The 10-basis (?) system did exist in Old Irish, but it’s not common (if used) in the Gaeltacht.
But at least the old system did exist, while in Brittany, in Breton-speaking schools they invented a 10-basis counting system (that never existed) because the normal 20-basis system was considered too difficult. But that’s what native Breton speakers have been using since the beginning of times. Seeing non-native speakers simplifying the language because they find it too hard, puzzles me. Why French people shouldn’t simplify the English grammar and pronunciation so that it’s easier to them? lol But in Brittany it’s not even a bad joke, unfortunately.I was also told that words like áintín and uncail were not used by native speakers until they were taught as “standard” in schools. Hopefully someone who has actually researched this, can give a more definite answer; I’m only mentioning what I’ve been told.
I think it’s true, in Scottish Gaelic there’s no specific words for aunt and uncle (except loanwords from English). Must be a general Gaelic thing, because in Welsh, Breton and Cornish there are specific (Celtic) words to say that.
My contact from Múscraí uses the base 20/score system and insists that it is the original system. The base 10 system was once imposed long, long ago but soon fell into disuse and the original base twenty system was re-instated and is used to this day – EXCEPT in the schools!
Caithfidh mé féachaint arís ar an mBéal Beo. Go bhfios dom deirtear/deirtí rud éigin fearacht “deartháir athar” nó a leithéidí seachas uncail, agus “mac deirféar” seachas nia, &c.
So everyone started out with both de and do (and their respective prepositional pronoun conjugations, of course), but over time, de just kind of morphed into do, leaving just the different prepositional pronouns intact? Except that in Northern Donegal even those are gone?
yeah I think so.
GRMA, a Lughaidh. The books never tell you these types of things, but knowing the “why” of something helps it stick better in my mind.
A WFM, I wondered the first time I saw the words áintín and uncail. They just sounded too English. I wonder why they (and just who were “they” anyway?) felt compelled to create a word where none existed. Even in English, I tend to use “uncle” and “aunt” only when I’m addressing one of them, or referring to a specific one with my kids (ie. “your Uncle Richard”). As a title, if you will. When talking about them to people outside the family I generally refer to them in terms of their place in the family, like “my father’s brother” or “my mother’s sister” so what Aonghus says makes perfect sense to me. I do find it curious that half of the Celtic languages have specific native words for them and Irish and Scottish (what about Manx?) don’t. I wonder why that is…..
I had a quick luck at DIL and it turned up “amnair” for a maternal uncle.
Nothing for aunt.
“nia” for nephew is there, but specifically sisters son. Banta & neacht for [del]nephew[/del]. niece!
So there may have been words which passed out of use.
All the people in a relationship probably was important, so sisters son etc might have been more used.
Unless I’m mistaken these were also used in English.Caithfidh mé féachaint arís ar an mBéal Beo. Go bhfios dom deirtear/deirtí rud éigin fearacht “deartháir athar” nó a leithéidí seachas uncail, agus “mac deirféar” seachas nia, &c.
ach is focla Ceilteacha “nia” agus “neacht” (b’fhéidir nach n-úsáidtear in achan áit iad, áfach, ach tá siad ann), cf Briotáinis ni(z) (=nia) agus ni(z)ez (neacht) mar shompla.
A WFM, I wondered the first time I saw the words áintín and uncail. They just sounded too English. I wonder why they (and just who were “they” anyway?) felt compelled to create a word where none existed. Even in English, I tend to use “uncle” and “aunt” only when I’m addressing one of them, or referring to a specific one with my kids (ie. “your Uncle Richard”). As a title, if you will. When talking about them to people outside the family I generally refer to them in terms of their place in the family, like “my father’s brother” or “my mother’s sister” so what Aonghus says makes perfect sense to me. I do find it curious that half of the Celtic languages have specific native words for them and Irish and Scottish (what about Manx?) don’t. I wonder why that is…..
me too 🙂 Maybe there were Gaelic words for uncle and aunt long ago, that were related to the Brythonic ones, and they have disappeared.
In the DIL, I find “amnair” in Old Irish, to say “mother’s brother”. I don’t find anything for “aunt”…
Dineen has the following for Aunt:
ATHAIREOG {feminine}, a paternal aunt.
MÁITHREÁN a mother; a maternal aunt.
AINTÍN
MÁITHSÍN (term of endearment); a maternal aunt ({Citation:O’Neachtan’s MS Irish-English Dictionary});One interesting word he has is UNCAILÍN (little Uncle) — APPLIED by children to male friends of the family (Kerry)
In the DIL, I find “amnair” in Old Irish, to say “mother’s brother”. I don’t find anything for “aunt”…
That’s interesting; also “nia” for sister’s son. If there were specific words unique to the various family relationships, there wouldn’t really have been a need for generic terms such as “aunt” and “uncle” would there?
To say “my mother’s brother”:
Deartháir de mo mháthar?
Or if you use/say “do” instead of “de”
Deartháir dom mháthar?
Is that correct?
(Not that I am boycotting the use of “uncail” nó “aintín” but I was thinking about the grammar of the other)
Dearthàir mo mhàthar (mhàthara in Ulster)
dearthàir de/do mo mhàthair means “a brother of my mother’s”, “one of my mother’s brothers”
just as you can say (among other patterns) “cara dom” = a friend of mine
Oh DUH!!! Of course I don’t need the “of” cause I’m using the genitive! That is quite possibly the stupidest mistake I’ve made so far…. :down:
GRMA, a chara.
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