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I think the following could clear up the question of singular/plural imperative for me: Suppose you’re at a dinner table with several people and you want someone to pass the potatoes. Would you say “sín na prátaí” to address the one with the potatoes, or “sínigí na prátaí” to speak to everyone? (Incidentally–nothing to do with my main question–is sín the word you ordinarily use, or do you sometimes use cuir or caith or tabhair instead of sín? I couldn’t find the actual usage so am just guessing, but I tend to picture cuir or caith to be asking them to toss them at me and tabhair to bestow them upon me or personally bring them to me.)
Another possibility: would the autonomous “síntear na prátaí” be good for this setting? If so, would “please” be “le do thoil” or “le bhur dtoil?” Or is please already pretty much implied with the autonomous and therefore not often said?
All minor details, but thanks for your input.
I think the following could clear up the question of singular/plural imperative for me: Suppose you’re at a dinner table with several people and you want someone to pass the potatoes. Would you say “sín na prátaí” to address the one with the potatoes, or “sínigí na prátaí” to speak to everyone?I wouldn’t use imperative here. It is more polite to use conditional, e.g. An dtabharfá …
Singular/plural: Whom do you want to address? If all – plural, if the one withe the potatoes – singular-Another possibility: would the autonomous “síntear na prátaí” be good for this setting?
I don’t know in Irish
That would be translated into German: “Man reiche mir die Kartoffeln!”
It would sound very stilted, appropriate for a king at a medieval banquet … (but actually still used today tongue-in-cheek.)If so, would “please” be “le do thoil” or “le bhur dtoil?”
No, you can’t use these with the autonomous form. Because there is no one you address, no one who could have a “toil”.
I agree conditional is better.
But if you wanted to use “sín”.
I’d say – Sín [color=red]agam[/color] na fataí.
or
Sín [color=red]anall/anuas[/color] é/iad
To show movement.Using “sín” by itself to my ears sounds like “stretch the potatoes etc”.
I think you mean “chugam” instead of “agam” (or at least that’s what seems correct to me).
But I agree that the conditional variants sound more applicable here.
I’d say whether you use the singular or the plural is probably variable just as it is in English. If you were at a table with multiple people and you saw that the thing you wanted was in front of or in the hands of someone else, you’d no doubt use the singular directed at that person. I imagine you could also use the conditional autonomous if you didn’t have any specific person in mind: an dtabharfaí ___ dom? – could someone give me ___ ? an sínfí ___ chugam? But that’s somewhat more speculative. Or “an dtabharfadh éinne __ ?” if you didn’t to use the autonomous.
“I think you mean “chugam” instead of “agam” (or at least that’s what seems correct to me). “
– Sorry, you are correct. I just use [color=red]”sín ‘am an…” [/color] so I forget what it is an abbreviation of.
In Connemara, replacing “chuig” by “ag” is very widespread, not to say the norm. So “agam” is not really incorrect, though if you use the Standard Irish word “prátaí”, you might also want to use the standard preposition “chugam”.
As for using the autonomous form, I agree with Labhrás that “síntear chugam na prátaí” (or “síntear ‘am na fataí”) would sound like something a king would say to his servants. 🙂
I imagine you could also use the conditional autonomous if you didn’t have any specific person in mind: an dtabharfaí ___ dom? – could someone give me ___ ? an sínfí ___ chugam? But that’s somewhat more speculative. Or “an dtabharfadh éinne __ ?” if you didn’t to use the autonomous.
The conditional autonomous would be weird: “Would the potatoes be passed/given to me?”(“Would I be passed/given the potatoes?”). For the conditional to have the sense of a request I’d say a subject is needed: “An sínfeá/an sínfeadh éinne(/duine éigin…). The saorbhriathar can be translated into English by the passive, or by “they”, “people” or “one” as an unspecified subject, but not really by”someone”.
On the other hand, I suppose the saorbhriathar could be used in the conditional thus: “An dtiocfaí/bhféadfaí na prátaí a chur/shíneadh (anall) chugam?” – “Could/might I be passed the potatoes?”
“Cuir” could be used too as an alternative to “sín”.
I appreciate all the input about this. I can also see the sense to using the conditional; thinking about what I really say in English it’s rarely “please pass the potatoes” but “would somebody pass the potatoes?” The consensus seems to be that sín/tabhair/cuir are all appropriate words for “pass.”
Would “An sínfeá na prátaí chugam?” perhaps be best if I’m asking someone right next to me to “hand” me the potatoes, and tabhair or cuir as a more general request to the table as a whole? Also, I suppose “please” would be overkill with the conditional here–do you agree? (Although perhaps I’d say “An dtabharfadh duine éigin na prátaí chugam, le bhur dtoil?!” if it’s the third time I’ve had to ask and I’m getting desperate.) 😉
Incidentally, your replies taught me a new word: fata, and I see that it’s right there in Ó Dónaill as an alternative to práta. Is fata considered part of CO? Has it become more widely used than práta today, or does this depend more on the part of the country? Or is it more like saying “spud?”
GRMA, a chách!
Incidentally, your replies taught me a new word: fata, and I see that it’s right there in Ó Dónaill as an alternative to práta. Is fata considered part of CO? Has it become more widely used than práta today, or does this depend more on the part of the country? Or is it more like saying “spud”?
This is a dialect word. In Munster, you would have “práta” (like in Standard Irish) and in Ulster, “preáta”.
Mar a deir na Connachtaigh: “Bheadh fataí nite, bruite agus ite ag an gConnachtach a fhad is a bheadh an Muimhneach ag rá “prááátaí”. 😉
Thanks for the explanation of “fata,” Onuvanja. And I love your quote; I could adapt that to the crowd here in South Dakota to the time fixing and eating spuds compared with saying poh-tay-tohs…GRMA!
🙂
I imagine you could also use the conditional autonomous if you didn’t have any specific person in mind: an dtabharfaí ___ dom? – could someone give me ___ ? an sínfí ___ chugam? But that’s somewhat more speculative. Or “an dtabharfadh éinne __ ?” if you didn’t to use the autonomous.
The conditional autonomous would be weird: “Would the potatoes be passed/given to me?”(“Would I be passed/given the potatoes?”). For the conditional to have the sense of a request I’d say a subject is needed: “An sínfeá/an sínfeadh éinne(/duine éigin…). The saorbhriathar can be translated into English by the passive, or by “they”, “people” or “one” as an unspecified subject, but not really by”someone”.
On the other hand, I suppose the saorbhriathar could be used in the conditional thus: “An dtiocfaí/bhféadfaí na prátaí a chur/shíneadh (anall) chugam?” – “Could/might I be passed the potatoes?”
The autonomous is not the same as passive voice, despite that it is usually translated that way. You are, I think, making the mistake of using an English translation as a means of verifying whether this is a correct usage or not. I find it curious that you think that using it with a “modal” construct is somehow more acceptable. That seems pretty inconsistent to me. Also, “one” and “someone” are really not all that different in this context (I translated it loosely as “someone” because in English you wouldn’t say “would one pass me the potatoes?” even if that is a more accurate translation). Again, I think you’re being far too literal with your translations here.
I agree that it would probably be an awkward way of saying this but I proposed it as an alternative way of thinking about it, qualifying it as “speculative”.Thanks for the explanation of “fata,” Onuvanja. And I love your quote; I could adapt that to the crowd here in South Dakota to the time fixing and eating spuds compared with saying poh-tay-tohs…GRMA!
🙂
Tá fáilte romhat, a Duncan! 🙂 Tugaim faoi deara anois go ndearna mé botún. Ba chóir an t-alt a bheith ann chomh maith, sé sin “na fataí”. Pé scéal é, ní raibh ann ach píosa spraoi, tá ardmheas agam ar chanúint na Mumhan.
Pé scéal é, ní raibh ann ach píosa spraoi, tá ardmheas agam ar chanúint na Mumhan.
Go cinnte, tá ardmheas agamsa freisin ar mo chairde gaoil as Shasana Nua, ach úsáidfidh mé do mhagadh an chéad uair eile a gháireann siad nuair a deirim “spuds.” [Is tosaitheoir leis an nGaeilge mé, mar sin tá súil agam gur dúirt mé é sin ceart.] 😆
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