Ní thuigim rud éigin fé an freagra seo.

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  • #36206
    Aislingeach
    Participant

    In the sentence word order execises in Basic Irish, one of the answers (pg 14) is:

    Cheannaigh Bríd teach nua in Albain inné.

    Why is it not “i nAlbain”?

    GRMA

    #41397

    Is dóigh liom gur féidir an abairt sin ar ceachtar dóigh a scriobh.

    #41399
    Lughaidh
    Participant

    Actually since 1950 they’ve chosen to write “in Albain” in àit “i nAlbain”.

    #41400
    Hugo
    Participant

    in is used before vowels and before dhá and bhur.

    #41401
    Aislingeach
    Participant

    Thank you all for the replies. I’m sorry, I don’t mean to be dense, and I don’t doubt your answers, but I wish to make sure I am understanding it correctly. Page 19 of TYI says (in relevant part) In positions where an initial consonant is eclipsed, n- is prefixed to an initial vowel. One of the examples they list is “i n-áit” Thus, I thought it would be “i nAlbain.”

    Am I understanding correctly that this has changed, the above is no longer the rule, and the example would now be written “in áit”?

    GRMA, arís

    #41402
    Lughaidh
    Participant

    Yes, that’s it. TYI is old so they didn’t use all the “new spelling rules” because they hadn’t been all created then 🙂

    #41403
    Aislingeach
    Participant

    Great! So my answer wasn’t really wrong, I just did the exercise 60 years too late! 🙂

    And this only applies to prefixing n- after the preposition “i” without the article, correct? Other places where I would eclipse the consonant, I would still prefix the n- to a vowel?

    #41404
    Lughaidh
    Participant

    The question-particle “an” also eclipses but remains “an” before vowels : an ólann tú tae? / an gceannaíonn tú arán ansin?
    The article “an” when it eclipses (ie. after certain prepositions – dative case) remains “an” before vowels too: ar an eitleán / ar an mbord

    I think we could say that the eclipsing words that end with -n, don’t prefix n- to vowels, they “use” their final -n instead of prefixing another n- to the vowel…

    #41405

    From what I have understood, i is an exception. It prefixes the n directly without the hyphen, at least to a capital initial, (i nÉirinn rather than i n-Éirinn) and nowadays it more often acquires the terminal n itself, rather than forcing the prefix on the following vowel. But I don’t see why it would be wrong to spell it either way, I think the pronunciation is essentially the same.

    The t- prefix also loses the hyphen before a capital initial: an t-uisce but an tUasal and the h prefix doesn’t use it at all.

    I have understood that i was originally in. At some point it lost the n, first before consonants but later after vowels, too. The eclipsis effect was left over. This was later applied in the spelling to vowels according to other cases that cause eclipsis on consonants.

    So there is a certain logic behind this exception.

    EDIT: Lughaidh explained it already as it seems.

    #41406
    Lughaidh
    Participant

    The t- prefix also loses the hyphen before a capital initial: an t-uisce but an tUasal and the h prefix doesn’t use it at all: neadacha na héin.

    right, except it should be neadacha na n-éan (or sometimes “na n-éanach” in Ulster).

    The role of the hyphen is to show that the prefixed letter isn’t a part of the word: you don’t need it when there’s a capital letter, since the original initial letter is a capital one: you don’t need an hyphen: in “an tUasal” you see that the capital letter, ie. the original initial letter, is the U so you know the word is “uasal” and that the t is a part of the article.
    With the h, since very few Irish words begin with an h (except a handful, all loanwords), they chose to remove the hyphen in all cases in the 1950s because there is little chance you’d be mistaken.

    #41407

    right, except it should be neadacha na n-éan (or sometimes “na n-éanach” in Ulster).

    The role of the hyphen is to show that the prefixed letter isn’t a part of the word: you don’t need it when there’s a capital letter, since the original initial letter is a capital one: you don’t need an hyphen: in “an tUasal” you see that the capital letter, ie. the original initial letter, is the U so you know the word is “uasal” and that the t is a part of the article.
    With the h, since very few Irish words begin with an h (except a handful, all loanwords), they chose to remove the hyphen in all cases in the 1950s because there is little chance you’d be mistaken.

    Would “Na hÉin Feargacha” be a rightful usage of the H prefix, then? LOL

    #41408
    Lughaidh
    Participant

    Yeah that’s right, except that you’d lenite “feargacha” (éin ends with a slender consonant):

    Na hÉin Fheargacha.

    (in Ulster we’d say “Na hÉanacha Feargacha”)

    #41409
    Aislingeach
    Participant

    Grand! Thanks for all the info, a chairde!

    The question-particle “an” also eclipses but remains “an” before vowels : an ólann tú tae? / an gceannaíonn tú arán ansin?
    The article “an” when it eclipses (ie. after certain prepositions – dative case) remains “an” before vowels too: ar an eitleán / ar an mbord

    I think we could say that the eclipsing words that end with -n, don’t prefix n- to vowels, they “use” their final -n instead of prefixing another n- to the vowel…

    Thank you for pointing out this exception. I hadn’t thought about that. It would never have occurred to me to prefix an “n” after something that ended with an “n” so unless this is also a change from former rules, I must conclude that TYI’s sentence “In positions where an initial consonant is eclipsed, n- is prefixed to an initial vowel.” is erroneous as a blanket statement, and should not be taken as such.

    GRMA, arís!

    #41410
    Marcoman
    Participant

    I like ár n-athair vs ár nathair.

    #41412
    Aislingeach
    Participant

    I like ár n-athair vs ár nathair.

    That’s an excellent example of the hyphen’s role! Into the notes it goes! GRMA!

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