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I’ve finished all the available lessons on Rosetta Stone, and feel that I’ve learned a lot through that program. There are, however, still a few structures that have me somewhat stumped, one of which is the use of the perfect tenses. I get it that it isn’t used as often as it is in English, but my main questions are:
(1) Can it only be used with transitive verbs? In the Stenson books I never see it with bi, for example. It does show sentences using the verbal adjective as a past participle, such as “Tá an obair críochnaithe: The work has been finished,” but is it possible to say something like “Have you eaten yet?” Would you ever say something like “An bhfuil tú ite fós?” or do you need an object? (“An bhfuil rud éigin ite agat?”)–Or is “Ar ith tú fós?” by far the best (or only) way? [An unrelated question: is go fóill better than fós in this context?]
(2) Is there a way to say something that reverts to bí when using a perfect tense, e.g. “How could I have known?” Does beite ever fit in in a case like this? Does “Conas a bhféadfadh a fhios beite agam?” make any sense? Or do I need to forget the perfect tense and say something like “Conas a d’fhéad a fhios a bheith agam?” (or Conas a raibh a fhios in ann a bheith agam?)
By the way, what exactly does “participle of necessity” really mean as opposed to “verbal adjective?” From what I’ve encountered, it appears that bí and féad are the only two verbs that use them–am I right?
Am I way beyond what I should be trying at this stage? I get the feeling I’m trying some things I’m not quite ready for just yet, but these are pretty common structures and I’m trying to improve my communication skills. Thanks for any help I can get here.Duncan
Yes, you can use intransitive verbs: Tá mé imithe. = I have gone.
Ith is rather ambiguous because it is transitive as well, so I don’t know if someone would say “Tá mé ite” – I have eaten or I have been eaten? (… ag na míoltóga = by midges, the only example I could find online is transitive)
Most important: In most circumstances “D’ith mé” is the best choice, transitive or intransitive.
You’d use (this kind of) perfect tenses only in case the result is so important to mention it particularly:
Tá mé ite ag na míoltóga – This doesn’t really mean that midges bit me, but that I am cluttered with mosquito bites (= the terrible itching result of the attack)
Tá mé imithe – No, I’m not speaking about the act of going away, but about the result: I’m far away.
Tá mé ite – Again, not really the act of eating is important but the result: the fact that you are sated, that your lunch break is over.beite
No, beite is no verbal adjective. It can’t be used for perfect tenses.How could I have known – I’d probably say: Conas a bheadh a fhios agam?
Does Rosetta Stone really teach participles of necessity?? Why? Well, except for some petrified phrases they are completely obsolete.
Gearánta is perhaps the only example which comes to mind of such a participle in everyday use: Ní gearánta ar an aimsir = No need to complain about the weather. Tt’s not too bad.
What is the participle of necessity of féad? Féadta?Thanks for some good insight. I can see that I’ve been trying to overuse the perfect tenses, and, honestly, I suspected that to be the case. Obviously your “Conas a bheadh a fhios agam?” is far less awkward and states the thought perfectly. I think I’ll look at perfect tenses for use mostly as I see them in Stenson, and will stick to the simple tenses otherwise.
No, Rosetta Stone never mentions participles of necessity. I just ran across the term in some online material, and found “beite” in Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla (Niall Ó Dónaill), and there it’s used in, e.g. “Is beite do dhuine Dia a ghuí: One should pray to God”–apparently using “is beite” like “bá cheart.”
Go raibh maith agat.BTW I’ve just read an example of “ite” in intransitive use (in The Irish of Iorras Aithneach):
So, yes, it is used 🙂Tá siad uilig (= uile) ite = They have all eaten.
Conas a bheadh a fhios agam?
This is correct. In the other dialects just substitute the relevant “how” interrogative, i.e. cén chaoi a mbeadh a fhios agam? tuige go mbeadh a fhios agam? etc. If it’s in response to a question, i.e. “An bhfuil a fhios agat?” you can just say “Tuige go mbeadh?”, i.e. why would i?
Being that I had never even heard of the term “participle of necessity” I looked it up and found a few more examples of this, just in case the OP wants them, although I agree with Labhrás that they aren’t necessarily worth worrying about too much:
is tabhartha do airi (aire?) = heed must be taken
ní tógtha air é = he is not to be blamed for itThere are also similar constructions that are more common that use the verb rather than the participle, i.e. d’éirigh liom, theip orm, níl fáil agam air, etc. But that’s another topic, probably.
I don’t really understand grammar terms so I’m not going to comment on that.
“Tá mé ite [ag na míoltóga]” – that is common usage. Or getting a scolding or telling off.
But I wouldn’t use it as an answer to “Have you eaten yet?”
“An bhfuil tú ite fós?” would mean have you been eaten (by the flies etc). Maybe that verb is not the best way to explain that type of grammar. You can say – An bhfuil tú críochnaithe? Are you finished?“is go fóill better than fós?” – I think that depends on dialect mostly or your preference.
BTW I’ve just read an example of “ite” in intransitive use (in The Irish of Iorras Aithneach):
So, yes, it is used 🙂Tá siad uilig (= uile) ite = They have all eaten.
I am not from Iorras Aithneach.
But my personal understanding of that would be – “They have all been eaten”. In response “Where are the mussels?”Thanks, everybody. I think the big point here is that we Americans get a little too wrapped up with insisting on perfect tenses. I really appreciate getting your input on usage; you’ve cleared up a lot of “up-in-the-air” questions I was left with. I’ll probably be back with other questions from time to time.
Go raibh maith agaibh, mo chairde!
Tatníonn an foghlaim Gaeilge liom. [I hope I said that right] :down:One last try. Sorry–was rushing to leave for work and got careless. Didn’t mean to clutter the board. Is there a way to delete a reply once you post it?
Taitníonn an fhoglaim Gaeilge liom!!!
On lunch break and had time to pay better attention. This is absolutely the last time I try this:
Taitníonn an fhoghlaim na Gaeilge liom.
I also found a new word to add go my vocabulary: Táim aiféalach! :red:One note: you don’t ever use two articles in a construction like this “foghlaim na Gaeilge”, “teach an fhir”, etc. are inherently definite phrases.
I would personally say something like “is maith liom Gaeilge a fhoghlaim”. If you want to stick with taitníonn, I’d say rather “taitníonn sé liom Gaeilge a fhoghlaim” or “taitníonn foghlaim na Gaeilge liom”, but for some reason that sounds kinda weird to me despite being grammatically correct. You might wait for corrections on this or other ideas.
Also note you can click the Edit button and change your post if you want to change it. That might be easier than making repeat posts just to correct an error 😉
Also, aiféala is usually used in its noun form and you would say “tá aiféala orm” rather than using aiféalach. You can also say “táim in aiféala faoi” (I am sorry about it). Also note there’s a slight difference in meaning between aiféala and aiféaltas. The former means more sorrow and regret, whereas the latter means more embarrassment and also sometimes regret. Both are used basically the same way though.
I would personally say something like “is maith liom Gaeilge a fhoghlaim”. If you want to stick with taitníonn, I’d say rather “taitníonn sé liom Gaeilge a fhoghlaim” or “taitníonn foghlaim na Gaeilge liom”, but for some reason that sounds kinda weird to me despite being grammatically correct. You might wait for corrections on this or other ideas.
…..Also, aiféala is usually used in its noun form and you would say “tá aiféala orm” rather than using aiféalach. You can also say “táim in aiféala faoi” (I am sorry about it). Also note there’s a slight difference in meaning between aiféala and aiféaltas. The former means more sorrow and regret, whereas the latter means more embarrassment and also sometimes regret. Both are used basically the same way though.
Those are correct. But personally I’d prefer – Is maith liom a bheith ag foghlaim Gaeilge.
“tá aiféala orm” is correct. You will often hear people saying “Tá brón orm” for “I’m sorry”, even though the correct meaning of “brón” is sorrow or grief rather than regret.
What do you think of Rosetta Stone Duncan?
I have course 1 of the Welsh one myself.Thanks for all the info! I appreciate knowing the different treatment of taitin; should have stuck with maith liom. And thanks for the reminder about the two articles; I have a hard time remembering that rule. Just getting used to the language, so I like reminders like this.
Regarding aiféala, then, that makes it just like using “Tá brón orm.” With what you said about aiféaltas, “Tá aiféaltas orm” probably best describes the state of affairs under the circumstances. That’s nice to know (and I’ll probably have good use for it again in the future) :cheese: Again, thanks for the note on usage here.
And thanks for pointing out the edit button–I should have thought of that, but I evidently wasn’t thinking of much of anything at the time!!!
It’s great getting help like this. Having finished Rosetta Stone, I’m now trying to apply what I learned, and it’s easy to mess up.
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