- This topic has 10 replies, 1 voice, and was last updated 11 years, 11 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
For some time I’ve had trouble working out how to translate the English present participle, when used like an attributive adjective.
I assume the verbal noun will be used, but how exactly.E.g. “The Running Man”
An Fear ag Rith?
An Fear atá ag Rith?
An Fear agus é ag Rith?Or “A picture of a flying hawk”
Pictiúr sheabhac ag eitilt?
Pictiúr seabhaic ag eitilt? (this can’t be right)
Pictiúr seabhaic agus é ag eitilt? (nor this)
Pictiúr le seabhac ag eitilt air?Any ideas?
Depends.
The running man (i.e., the man who is currently running): an fear atá ag rith; cf. an bhfeiceann tú an fear atá ag rith?=do you see the running man?
The running man (i.e., the man who runs habitually): an fear a ritheas or fear an reatha; cf. ab in é an fear a ritheas? or ab in é fear an reatha?=is that the man that runs?
A picture of a flying hawk (i.e., a picture of a hawk in the act of flying): pictiúr de sheabhac ag eitilt.
A picture of a flying hawk (i.e., a picture of a hawk that can fly as opposed to one of a flightless hawk): pictiúr de sheabhac eitilte.
Perhaps there’s no need for the definite article in Irish? I would just say “fear ag rith”, unless we’re talking about a specific man and the photo in question pictures him running.
And then, of course, there’s the word “reathaí” (“runner”) that you could use, or “fear an reatha”, as Cúnla suggested.
Thanks for the responses.
The running man (i.e., the man who is currently running): an fear atá ag rith; cf. an bhfeiceann tú an fear atá ag rith?=do you see the running man?
Yes, this is the meaning I had in mind – where the present participle is used in the same way as an attributive adjective: “the tall man”, “the blond man”, “the running man”, “the eating man“.
So you feel the “atá” is necessary? I take it there would be no distinction between “the running man” and “the man who is running” then.A picture of a flying hawk (i.e., a picture of a hawk in the act of flying): pictiúr de sheabhac ag eitilt.
That’s a much better translation.
What about a situation where the genitive and not a preposition is used?“The wife of the dancing man” (who is dancing now)
Bean an fhir atá ag rinnce/Bean an Fhear atá ag rinnce?“Land of the Rising Sun”(directly translated[color=red]*[/color])
Tír na Gréine/an Ghrian (atá) ag Éirghe? (the “atá” seems odd to me in this one)[size=1]([color=red]*[/color] I understand an indirect translation would likely be preferable.)[/size]
“fear ag rith”
So it can work without “atá”?
When using a verbal noun as an attributive adjective, usually it is the genitive form. No “ag” is used.
Running man = fear reatha.
Picture of a flying hawk = pictiúr de sheabhac eitilte.Use of “ag” means that you are actually talking about the action. It obviously depends what you want to express exactly. The difference is like the one in English between “the running man” or “the man who is running”.
This can be deceptive in Irish sometimes, because some nouns in the genitive case look like adjectives to the untrained eye. For instance “comhaid chabhrach”, I can see a beginner thinking “cabhrach” means something like “helpful”, and in context it sort of does, but it’s really the genitive of cabhair = to help, so literally “files of helping” -> “helping files” -> “help files”.
Running man = fear reatha.
Picture of a flying hawk = pictiúr de sheabhac eitilte.I understand these as “a man that is meant to run” (whose job is to run…),” a hawk that is “designed” to fly”.
Not “running man (man who’s running)” nor “flying hawk” (hawk that’s flying).Yes, that’s my understanding of them too. The verbal nouns in the gen. case above are the equivalent of the English gerund rather than the present participle.
Two interpretations of the term “cleaning woman” illiustrate the difference well:-
(a) A woman who’s profession it is to clean. – Gerund. Genitive of verbal noun (or sometimes a form ending in “-chán” e.g. “itheachán”) in Irish.
(b) A woman engaged in the activity of cleaning right now. (She may be an accountant or a nurse for all we know.) – Present Participle. Apparently “…. (atá) ag verbal noun” in Irish. That’s what I’ve been trying to understand.P.S. I can see a basic difference between two examples of “present pariciple + noun” in the genitive case I gave in my last post:-
“The wife of the dancing man” (who is dancing now)
Bean an fhir atá ag rinnce/Bean an Fhear atá ag rinnce?“Land of the Rising Sun”(directly translated*)
Tír na Gréine/an Ghrian (atá) ag Éirghe? (the “atá” seems odd to me in this one)In the first “the dancing man” seems like any old noun qualified by an attributive adjective, but in the second “the Rising Sun” seems to be a fixed unit with the time in which the activity described happens not indicated.
This is why, I think, the “atá” felt wrong.Running man = fear reatha.
Picture of a flying hawk = pictiúr de sheabhac eitilte.I understand these as “a man that is meant to run” (whose job is to run…),” a hawk that is “designed” to fly”.
Not “running man (man who’s running)” nor “flying hawk” (hawk that’s flying).I don’t understand your interpretation here. What about the genitive to you suggests purpose or the meaning “meant to”?
Yes, that’s my understanding of them too. The verbal nouns in the gen. case above are the equivalent of the English gerund rather than the present participle.
Two interpretations of the term “cleaning woman” illiustrate the difference well:-
(a) A woman who’s profession it is to clean. – Gerund. Genitive of verbal noun (or sometimes a form ending in “-chán” e.g. “itheachán”) in Irish.
(b) A woman engaged in the activity of cleaning right now. (She may be an accountant or a nurse for all we know.) – Present Participle. Apparently “…. (atá) ag verbal noun” in Irish. That’s what I’ve been trying to understand.P.S. I can see a basic difference between two examples of “present pariciple + noun” in the genitive case I gave in my last post:-
“The wife of the dancing man” (who is dancing now)
Bean an fhir atá ag rinnce/Bean an Fhear atá ag rinnce?“Land of the Rising Sun”(directly translated*)
Tír na Gréine/an Ghrian (atá) ag Éirghe? (the “atá” seems odd to me in this one)In the first “the dancing man” seems like any old noun qualified by an attributive adjective, but in the second “the Rising Sun” seems to be a fixed unit with the time in which the activity described happens not indicated.
This is why, I think, the “atá” felt wrong.I feel your general barrier here is that you are still thinking in English and then trying to translate that thinking into Irish. The constructions that exist in English can sometimes be reflected in Irish constructions but it’s important to remember that Irish is Irish, if that makes any sense. Look for actual examples of this type of construction in Irish and copy it. I think sometimes learners try to reinvent the wheel, so to speak.
“The wife of the dancing man” (who is dancing now)
Bean an fhir atá ag rinnce/Bean an Fhear atá ag rinnce?Bean an fhir atá ag rince
“an fhear” is impossible, I think.
I feel your general barrier here is that you are still thinking in English and then trying to translate that thinking into Irish. The constructions that exist in English can sometimes be reflected in Irish constructions but it’s important to remember that Irish is Irish, if that makes any sense. Look for actual examples of this type of construction in Irish and copy it. I think sometimes learners try to reinvent the wheel, so to speak.
No, I fully understand that one should translate meaning and not the construction of another language.
I’m simply interested in the most precise Irish equivalent (which I know involves the verbal noun in some way) of English terms of this type.Bean an fhir atá ag rince
“an fhear” is impossible, I think.Perhaps you’re right.
I thought “Bean an fhir” could be mistakenly understood as a unit in “Bean an fhir ag rinnce”.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
