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By the way.. I do kind of want your opinion on one thing from the above: my statement about the inconsistency of phonetics was based on my experience that, for instance, there is a difference in pronunciation between “cion” and “ciallmhar”. Is this bogus, in the context of this discussion? I am right in saying that “ciallmhar” is more like “keel-” and “cion” is like “kyun” (I hate transliterations, so those are approximate)?
Níl fadhb ar bith ann!
By the way.. I do kind of want your opinion on one thing from the above: my statement about the inconsistency of phonetics was based on my experience that, for instance, there is a difference in pronunciation between “cion” and “ciallmhar”. Is this bogus, in the context of this discussion? I am right in saying that “ciallmhar” is more like “keel-” and “cion” is like “kyun” (I hate transliterations, so those are approximate)?
-ia- is a diphtong (phonologically speaking) while -io- isn’t
Ciallmhar /k’iÉ™LwÉ™r/ [ˈkʲiÉ™lË wəɾ]
vs
cion /kˈon/ [kʲjÉ”nË ]in “cion”, the i is only there to show the c is slender, in phonology there’s no diphthong, and the [j] is a glide
is that what you meant? 🙂
Exactly.
-ia- is a diphtong (phonologically speaking) while -io- isn’t
However, in full consistency, it seems to have more to do with what comes after that, which is to say “cionn” vs. “cion” both have “io” but the function of the “i” is determined in this case by something other than that specific vowel grouping (I’m not sure I’m explaining myself well here, but maybe you get the point).
My point isn’t that Irish pronunciation is completely illogical, but it is considerably less simple than isolated consonant/vowel pairings.
Also, I could swear I have heard a recording of Máirtin óÂ Díreáin where he says “chiapadh” as “khyupuh” (as opposed to “kee-“, and forgive me, I’m not good with IPA), but I could be imagining things.
However, in full consistency, it seems to have more to do with what comes after that, which is to say “cionn” vs. “cion” both have “io” but the function of the “i” is determined in this case by something other than that specific vowel grouping (I’m not sure I’m explaining myself well here, but maybe you get the point).
maybe “io” is a bad example since its pronunciation, as well as that of “oi” and that of stressed “ai” are almost unpredictable in my opinion.
Btw in Donegal Irish I pronounce “cion” and “cionn” the same way except that the n / nn should be different (at least in archaic pronunciation)For instance “mion” is /m’in/ while “iontas” is /iNtÉ™s/, etc
maybe “io” is a bad example since its pronunciation, as well as that of “oi” and that of stressed “ai” are almost unpredictable in my opinion.
I guess this was my original point all along – that there isn’t an easy set of rules that dictates what these combinations will produce. Maybe you were talking originally about a very specific pair, whereas I was taking this to mean consonant-slender initial combinations in general. 😛
In Connacht at least, “cionn” starts with a “kee-” and I think in Munster as well, not sure. I’m not usually that familiar with Donegal, but I know some of the differences. I hope eventually they will keep adding to the stock of foghraíochtaí on breis.focloir.ie, because it’s very nice the way they give you all three dialects and they seem authentic enough.So when the vowel does not cause an on glide, is the consonant essentially the same and the broad consonant (except in obvious cases like s and d and t)? Basically, is the “m” in “mé” the same as the “m” in mo?
Not to me, when you pronounce “mé”, your lips spread as if you were smiling ; when you say “mo”, they are rather rounded.
Sorry if I’m barking up the wrong tree, but it’s not just the glide that makes a consonalt broad or slender, is it? There’s also the fact that in order to make a slender consonant you raise your tongue towards the hard palate, whereas in the case of a broad consonant you raise it towards the soft palate. Compare for instance words like “tuí” and “tí”, where there are two very different “t” sounds. Forgive me if I’ve misunderstood the previous posts.
The “slenderness” or “broadness” of a consonant can be manifested in several ways, depending on the consonant. For labial ones like m and p, the lips will be slightly more tight or contracted, as Lughaidh says. For dental and alveolar ones like you are talking about, the tongue will be either making less contact with the teeth or will be further up on the palate.
These things and the glide are all linked, not isolated aspects. The glide is a natural result of what happens when one says a slender consonant and then tries to say a broad vowel afterwards. Assuming one is saying the consonant correctly, it’s in fact almost impossible to then transition to a broad consonant without making a glide. Hope that makes sense.
Yeah, you are right. This shows nicely the three different pronunciations, which backs up what each of us said (although I was mistaken about Munster, I was right about Connacht):
[url]http://breis.focloir.ie/ga/fuaim/thar_cionn[/url]
So when the vowel does not cause an on glide, is the consonant essentially the same and the broad consonant (except in obvious cases like s and d and t)? Basically, is the “m” in “mé” the same as the “m” in mo?
No, the broad and slender consonants are quite different. For instance the difference between the b in beo and bó is the main difference between the two words.
The off-glide is simply a natural by product of the tongue moving from its position while making the slender b at the start of beo to its next position while making the ó.
By the way, the written “e” in beo is present because the Bard’s who encoded the modern Irish spelling conventions at the end of the 12th century analysed the tongue to be in the e position while slender b was being uttered. It’s the same for all of the (silent) broad/slender marking vowels.
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