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Hello all.
I posted in the Irish only forum but didn’t get a reply so thought I’d see if somebody could help me out here.
I’m doing an MA in the Irish language and am specialising in the area of translation.
Last week in the translating class our lecturer told us something interesting about the genitive plural after the verbal noun.
I was asked to translate ‘she is studying books’ using the verbal adjective. I said ‘tá sí ag staidéar leabhar’ as I thought it was genitive plural.
The lecturer told us however that the genitive plural form only follows the verbal noun when the article is before the noun. So while ‘tá sí ag staidéar na leabhar’ is correct, ‘tá sí ag staidéar leabhar’ is incorrect. It is simply a case of nominative plural after the verbal noun when the article is not before the noun. Thus, you get ‘tá sí ag staidéar leabhair’.
This is indeed very interesting but also troublesome.
For many nouns in Irish the genitive singular and nominative plural are the same. Take for example ‘he is building a boat’ and ‘he is building boats’. ‘Tá sé ag tógáil báid’ and ‘tá sé ag tógáil báid’ according to what I learnt last week.
How do you know if it’s ‘a boat’ or ‘boats’? Same with ‘a book’ and ‘books’.
Can anyone help me to work this one out?
I believe you just have to know through context. Someone may correct me on this, but it is certainly not the only example of grammatical situations in Irish which create some ambiguity of meaning. I’d go as far as to say every language has such situations. As you probably know, that isn’t the only situation in which the nominative is used after the verbal noun where you would expect the genitive. I can’t give you a full list, but if you read a comprehensive grammar book like the Christian Brothers, you’ll find it.
Am I the only one who’s never heard of this “rule” your lecturer has given you. As far as I know the noun is always in the genitive whether it’s singular or plural, definite or indefinite, with or without the article – except if the noun (sing. or plural) is indefinite and qualified, in which case the nominative is used instead of the genitive.
– ‘ag léamh (an) leabhair/ (na) leabhar’ – genitive,
but ”ag léamh leabhar Gaeilge/leabhair Ghaeilge’ – nominative.
So. ‘ag léamh leabhair/ag tógáil báid’ can only mean ‘a book/a boat’.
As far as I know!
Hmm, you know when the OP mentioned this, it rang a bell. But now that I’m looking into it, I can’t find it substantiated yet. I knew there were a couple exceptions to the genitive rule (I remembered that you use the nominative if it is followed by an adjective) but couldn’t remember what they all were. I know the use of the genitive is in flux in certain dialects (or at least that’s what I’ve read), so maybe it is a rule somewhere, but I am starting to think that Hugo is right and that there is no ambiguity.
I skimmed through the Revised Standard, but as far as I can see it goes to great lengths when discussing structures like “ag tabhairt léime” (“jumping”) where the verb is followed by a verbal noun, but doesn’t really touch upon basics, such as “ag léamh leabha(i)r”…
http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/michelle/Final-Version.pdfHaving ‘grown up’ on Learning Irish, I would personally be inclined to use “tá mé ag tógáil bád” for singular and “tá mé ag tógáil báid” for plural (and “tá mé ag tógáil an bháid” and “tá mé ag tógáil na mbáid”, respectively, in case there’s a definite article). But I could be wrong.
I would personally be inclined to use “tá mé ag tógáil bád” for singular and “tá mé ag tógáil báid” for plural (and “tá mé ag tógáil an bháid” and “tá mé ag tógáil na mbáid”, respectively, in case there’s a definite article). But I could be wrong.
Really? It should be the other way around, or I’m very mistaken.
tá mé ag tógáil bád = plural
tá mé ag tógáil na mbád
tá mé ag tógáil báid = singular
tá mé ag tógáil an bháidI would personally be inclined to use “tá mé ag tógáil bád” for singular and “tá mé ag tógáil báid” for plural (and “tá mé ag tógáil an bháid” and “tá mé ag tógáil na mbáid”, respectively, in case there’s a definite article). But I could be wrong.
Really? It should be the other way around, or I’m very mistaken.
tá mé ag tógáil bád = plural
tá mé ag tógáil na mbád
tá mé ag tógáil báid = singular
tá mé ag tógáil an bháidNo, you’re not wrong, Héilics. What I said was based on O’Siadhail’s Learning Irish which teaches the Connemara dialect. In that dialect (and perhaps to some extent also in other dialects), the genitive is often replaced by the nominative case, e.g. “tá mé ag tógáil teach” (verb + indefinite noun = “I’m building a house”) or “seolta na mbáid” (genitive plural = “the boats’ sails”). Similarly, feminine nouns modified by an adjective stay in the nominative, e.g. “tá mé ag oscailt an fhuinneog mhór”. So, for me using “tá mé ag tógáil bád” would be confusing, as I would associate it with the singular, rather than the plural. However, I suppose Standard Irish still makes use of all genitive forms, so it would be best to refer to Carmanach’s detailed post.
Standard Irish uses genitives after the verbal noun, except when the noun is indefinite and qualified by a word (adjective, noun, etc).
Tà mè ag lèamh leabhair (reading a book)
Tà mè ag lèamh leabhar maith (reading a good book)In the dialect it may different though, it depends on the dialect, if there’s an article etc.
Thank you all for your thoughts. They’re a big help.
I think he must have been talking about when the indefinite noun is qualified by an adjective. I just remember that it confused me.
He told us as well that ‘ag léamh’ is incorrect so I’ll ask him next week to explain why it is that ‘ag léamh’ is wrong. He said it’s ‘a léamh’ and that ‘ag léamh’ is a common mistake.
We do be translating legislation and so we’re often busy and I forget to ask him questions I have written down in my notebook.
I’ll ask him next week and find out exactly what he meant in both cases.
Thanks again.
Both “a léamh” and “ag léamh” mean something different and are both correct, but not in the same instance, so I’m not sure what your teacher is on about.
“táim ag léamh leabhair” – i’m reading a book
“leabhar a léamh” – to read a bookIt’s possible he was referring to pronunciation? You would usually not pronounce the “g” in “ag” regardless.
He was talking about the verbal noun. He told us that ‘ag léamh’ is wrong but it is a common mistake people make.
He’s an occasional lecturer so I can’t go to him and talk to him about it.
I’ll find out next week though. I’ll have a list of questions ready.
Yeah, the “g” of “ag” (before a verbal noun) is never pronounced when the following verbal noun begins with a consonant. And the “a” is never pronounced when the preceding word ends with a vowel.
So in “tá mé ag léamh”, people actually say “tá mé ‘léamh”. You don’t hear the “ag” at all 🙂
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