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Hi there, cad é mar ‘tá,
Tá ceist agam fá dtaobh don chlásal coibhneasta, mar chuala agus chonaic mé na foirmeacha seo:
– an obair a dhéan[color=green]as[/color] muid
– an ceol a chluine[color=green]as[/color] tú anois
– an bia a gheobh[color=green]as[/color] muid anseo
– na daoine a thé[color=green]as[/color] abhaileNow, I could not find anything about these in the grammar na mBráithre Críostaí (only grammar book I have), but I found this online (http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/michelle/An-Caighdeán-Oifigiúil.pdf):
Tá foirm choibhneasta neamhspleách ar leith ar an mbriathar san aimsir láithreach,
san aimsir ghnáthláithreach agus san aimsir fháistineach. is féidir an fhoirm sin a
úsáid sa chlásal coibhneasta de rogha ar na foirmeacha scartha den bhriathar sna
haimsirí sin.(i) san aimsir láithreach agus san aimsir ghnáthláithreach, cuirtear an foirceann -s
in ionad -nn, e.g., an clár a bhíos ar siúl, na daoine a cheannaíos éadaí sna
siopaí sin.(ii) san aimsir fháistineach, cuirtear an foirceann -fas in ionad -faidh, -feas in
ionad -fidh, -ós in ionad -óidh, agus -eos in ionad -eoidh, e.g., céard a
dhéanfas tú anois?, an fear a bhuailfeas an sliotar, an chuideachta a cheannós
an chuideachta eile, na daoine a chruinneos airgead thar ceann an charthanais.So does that mean:
1) Those forms can be used in direct and indirect relative clauses? The above are all direct, are they not?
2) Those forms do not seem to be used if there is a personal ending, i.e. -(a)im. So they cannot be used for the 1st person singular of the present tense. Can they still be used for the 1st person in the future tense, seeing as it does not usually have any such ending in that tense, e.g.: – an teach a fheicfeas mise amárach? Because it does seem weird. Would be normal with “tú”, but with “mé”? Maybe it is just not common use?
3) In which dialects are they more strongly used? I heard the muintir Chonnamara pronounce them differently? Are they very common in Tír Chonaill?
4) Am I correct in stating that forms of the future tense and the present tense could be pronounced in a very similar way? e.g.: an teach a bhfeiceas tú vs. bhfeicfeas tú? It is easier with the -(a)igh-verbs, they would have: – an charr a cheannaíos/cheannós tú…
5) Is there a form for “bí”? Ar nós “tás”/”bhfuileas”? I haven’t found any…Go raibh maith agaibh! 🙂
I would hesitate to give what sounds like an authoritative answer on questions 1-4, because I’d hate to misinform you. I am pretty sure the answer to question 5 is: bheas (which I usually hear pronounced like “bhéas”)
Go raibh maith agaibh!
The Christian Brothers deal with these relative forms in section 14.19:
Maith thú féin, ní fhaca mé an píosa sin!
So there are two forms for “bí”: “bhíos” (or bhíonns in Connamara) in the aimsir ghnáthláithreach, “bheas” in the aimsir fháistineach and none in the aimsir láithreach (except maybe for the Munster “Conas ‘tás tú” 😉 ). That’s good to know. I have heard “bheas” before, but didn’t really know “bhíos”.
Another thing: You cannot use these forms with negative particles, can you? You cannot say: – an obair nach [color=orange]ndéanas*[/color] muid?
Thanks again!
You use the -s relative endings when all these conditions are found at the same time:
– direct relative
– present or future
– positive (not negative)
– no personal ending (as you said, with the ending -im you can’t have a relative ending, but in some places you can say “-as mé” in the present tense)5) I don’t know but there is for the habitual present: a bhíonns in Conamara. Donegal is another story again.
in Donegal in the present you use the -nns or -as endings.
In Ulster, in the habitual present you can say a bhìonns or a bhìos or even a bìos (without lenition).Certain irregular verbs, in certain tenses, can’t have an -s ending: thèid, thig…
4) Am I correct in stating that forms of the future tense and the present tense could be pronounced in a very similar way? e.g.: an teach a bhfeiceas tú vs. bhfeicfeas tú?
it’s a direct relative so it’s not an eclipsis but a lenition: an teach a fheiceanns tù vs. an teach a fheicfeas tù, I think.
In Ulster it would be “an teach a tchì/tchìonns/tchìos tù vs. an teach a tchìfeas tù.It is easier with the -(a)igh-verbs, they would have: – an charr a cheannaíos/cheannós tú…
an carr a cheannaìonns tù vs. an carr a cheannòs tù — I think
(in Donegal Irish I’d say “a’ carr a cheannas tù vs. a’ carr a cheannòchas tù”)Students of Munster Irish can ignore these relative forms apart from the ones I quoted!
Baochas le dia! :coolsmile:
I would think the same thing except “leis na déithe” but there might be a more idiomatic way of saying it.
I would think the same thing except “leis na déithe” but there might be a more idiomatic way of saying it.
You’re right, leisna déithe is definitely correct grammatically (I think leisna can also be written as one word). It would be nice to know about any idiomatic ways that may exist.
Baochais leis na/les na déithe.
Note how sandhi often affects the consonants.
Go raibh maith agat! 🙂
Also “a bhuí le”:
A bhuí le Dia gur mhí an Mheithimh an bhí ann nó chaillfí leis an bhfuacht í; thank God it was June or she would have died of the cold, (Neans Ní Riagáin, An Rinn)
Thanks Carmanach, you’ve given me plenty of things to study over the week-end! :cheese:
Thanks Carmanach and Lughaidh!
[size=1]LughaidhPosted: 23 March 2013 09:12 [/size]
in some places you can say “-as mé” in the present tense)
That’s interesting, I didn’t know that 🙂
[size=1]Lughaidh 23 March 2013 09:15 PM [/size]
it’s a direct relative so it’s not an eclipsis but a lenition: an teach a fheiceanns tù vs. an teach a fheicfeas tù, I think.
In Ulster it would be “an teach a tchì/tchìonns/tchìos tù vs. an teach a tchìfeas tù.Oops, thanks for the correction!
[size=1]Lughaidh Posted: 23 March 2013 09:15 PM
[/size]
a’ carr a cheannòchas tùOh, so it’s a similar pattern to e.g. “Ceannóidh mé (rud éigin) amárach” being pronounced: “ceannóchaidh” mé. That makes sense. If grammar is supposed to make sense, anyway 🙂
[size=1]Carmanach – 23 March 2013 09:53 PM[/size]
Baochais leis na/les na déithe.
Note how sandhi often affects the consonants.
What is sadhi? I’ve never heard of, I hope it’s something in Munster Irish only? Sounds scarier to me than all that relative verbform stuff 😉
“Tá fáilte romhat” is probably an anglicism
I’ve often wondered about this. It seems I’ve usually seen this in instructional material, but I don’t know if I’ve ever heard a native speaker say it. It seems like what you’d say if you were telling someone they were welcome in a place, not for waht you’ve just done for them.
“Tá fáilte romhat” is probably an anglicism
I’ve often wondered about this. It seems I’ve usually seen this in instructional material, but I don’t know if I’ve ever heard a native speaker say it. It seems like what you’d say if you were telling someone they were welcome in a place, not for waht you’ve just done for them.
“go ndéana sé maith duit” is a nice way of saying it, too, especially in the pub when you bring somebody a beer 🙂 Or ist it “Go ndéana a mhaith duit”?
Where does “Ná habair é” come from, then?
I have heard young native speakers say “Tá fáilte romhat”, it’s probably the influence of English really…Or ist it “Go ndéana a mhaith duit”?
that’s what I learnt, “go ndéanaidh a mhaith duit”
Where does “Ná habair é” comes from, then?
from English “don’t mention it”.
I have heard young native speakers say “Tá fáilte romhat”, it’s probably the influence of English really…
yes.
The “true” Irish expressions are “go ndéanaidh a mhaith duit” and “nìl a bhuìochas ort”.Oh, so it’s a similar pattern to e.g. “Ceannóidh mé (rud éigin) amárach” being pronounced: “ceannóchaidh” mé.
it’s not a different pronunciation of ceannòidh mè, actually the -òchaidh ending is the original one (still the normal one in Donegal), and the -òidh ending is a shortened form of it.
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