Review of Buntús Cainte through Actual Irish Dialects: Chapters 1-9

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  • #45459
    Onuvanja
    Participant

    This matter is discussed in the Style Guide published by An Gúm, according to which masculine nouns, such as “seomra”, do not prefix “t-” in Munster and Connachta (sa seomra), but do so in Ulster (sa tseomra). Still, I suppose this is just a recommendation, rather than a rule, based on the most common forms available in each dialect, because forms like “don tsagart” and “den tsórt sin” (both masculine nouns) are very common in Connemara Irish. Having said that, I think Connachta would have “sa seomra”.
    http://www.gaeilge.ie/dynamic/file/Stil Ti an Ghuim_Iuil 2012fior.pdf

    #45461
    Dáithí
    Participant

    Thanks Wee Falorie Man. Onuvanja, thanks for the link. I’ve looked through the material and see where the t prefix is applied for both masculine and feminine words in Munster and Ulster, but only for feminine words in Connacht.

    So, would it be:

    Sa seomra (CO)
    Sa seomra (C)
    Sa tseomra (M)
    Sa tseomra (U)

    #45462
    Hugo
    Participant

    Chapter 4
    Excerpts from Chapter 4 with possible dialectal variations applied:
    Tá mé go iontach maith, buíochas le Dia. [U]

    Corrections welcomed and appreciated – thanks.

    According to the CO, when an adjective is qualified by an adverb – e.g. “measartha , réasúnta, iontach “, “go” is omitted. (I think it applies in all dialects.)

    “Tá mé go maith” but “tá mé iontach/measartha (etc) maith”. However, “go” is retained before the prefix “an” (which, of course, isn’t an adverb ): ” Tá mé/táim go han-mhaith”.

    #45464
    Onuvanja
    Participant

    According to the CO, when an adjective is qualified by an adverb – e.g. “measartha , réasúnta, iontach “, “go” is omitted. (I think it applies in all dialects.)

    “Tá mé go maith” but “tá mé iontach/measartha (etc) maith”. However, “go” is retained before the prefix “an” (which, of course, isn’t an adverb ): ” Tá mé/táim go han-mhaith”.

    In Connemara and I think also in Munster, “go” is also retained before “iontach” (“tá sé go hiontach”) and words like “álainn”, “deas”, “breá”, “dona”, “olc”, “úafasach”. In Ulster, “ionta(ch)” is often used as an intensifier (“tá mé ionta maith”), in which case it doesn’t function like an adjective, but like an adverb.

    #45466
    Dáithí
    Participant

    Chapter 6

    The interrogative is introduced with sentences like cá bhfuil mé? Are there any dialectal variations here?

    The all important copula, is, is also introduced in this chapter. I notice that in the Great Irish Verb Book, there are no dialectal variations shown for the copula. Is the copula used identically in all dialects?

    #45467
    Wee_Falorie_Man
    Participant

    The interrogative cá is introduced with sentences like cá bhfuil mé? Are there any dialectal variations here?

    Cá bhfuilim? (Gaolainn na Mumhan)

    *edit: oops! I guess you wanted to see all o’ them – Seo dhuit:
    Cá bhfuilim?
    Cá bhfuileann tú?
    (or sometimes Cá bhfuilir?)
    Cá bhfuil sé?
    Cá bhfuil sí?
    Cá bhfuilimíd?
    Cá bhfuileann sibh?
    Cá bhfuilid?
    (or sometimes Cá bhfuil siad?)

    I don’t know how that matches up to other dialects, but that’s the way that I was taught.

    #45468
    Dáithí
    Participant

    Ceacht 7
    This chapter has more examples using sa, tá, an bfhuil, agus nil.
    Excerpting a couple of examples and putting them in different dialects:
    Chan fhuil an bhean sa tseomra beag. [U]
    An bhfuileann an fear ramhar sa teach? [M]
    I didn’t make an example for Connacht since this chapter looks like it’s in the Connacht dialect anyway.

    #45469
    Wee_Falorie_Man
    Participant

    An bhfuileann an fear ramhar sa teach? [M]

    That sentence should be:
    An bhfuil an fear ramhar sa tigh?

    #45470
    Dáithí
    Participant

    An bhfuileann an fear ramhar sa teach? [M]

    That sentence should be:
    An bhfuil an fear ramhar sa tigh?

    GRMA. Ach, cím i Leabhar Mór Bhriathra na Gaeilge: An bhfuileann sé?* for the Munster dialect, where the asterisk means that the “CO version” can be used also, which is an bhfuil sé?

    #45471
    Wee_Falorie_Man
    Participant

    Ach, cím i Leabhar Mór Bhriathra na Gaeilge: An bhfuileann sé?* for the Munster dialect, where the asterisk means that the “CO version” can be used also, which is an bhfuil sé?

    That’s what it says, alright. It also has tánn sé, tánn sí, and tánn siad which are quite different from the way that I was taught. A. J. Hughes says that he is using the Irish from Corca Dhuibhne, so that might explain these differences (or maybe he’s just mistaken, I dunno). What little I know, I learnt mostly from a native speaker in Múscraí, from GaelTalk and from “Teach Yourself Irish” – the original version that teaches Cork Irish.

    #45472
    Dáithí
    Participant

    WFM, thanks for the points you’ve made; they’re helping me to see the breadth of variations even within a major dialect like Munster.

    #45473
    Wee_Falorie_Man
    Participant

    Here’s something that you might want have a look at:

    http://corkirish.wordpress.com/verb-conjugation/taim/

    #45474
    Lughaidh
    Participant

    Chan fhuil an bhean sa tseomra beag. [U]

    Actually, even in the dialects where “cha(n)” is majoritary, people still use “níl” most of the time, except maybe in the furthest eastern dialects (Ros Goill…).
    In Gaoth Dobhair, Rann na Feirste and Cloich Cheannaola, as far as I know, people use “níl” most of the time, and “chan fhuil” only to emphasize the negation.
    Btw I think it’s:

    Níl a’ bhean sa tseamra bheag / Níl a’ bhean ins a’ tseamra bheag. (normally you lenite an edjective after a noun that is after a preposition+article)

    #45475
    Dáithí
    Participant

    Thanks for the link Wee Falorie Man – very helpful in understanding the Munster dialect. Lughaidh, thanks for the clarification. I also see the use of seamra for room. When you wrote that the adjective is lenited after an “article + preposition + noun” combination, does that apply for all dialects or does that apply only to Ulster? The reason I ask is that the example in BC is Níl an bhean sa seomra beag (with no lenition).

    #45476
    Lughaidh
    Participant

    In standard Irish, they lenite adjectives after nouns after preposition in the same cases as in the nominative: an bhean bheag > leis an mbean bheag, and an fear beag > leis an bhfear beag (although the Donegal forms are accepted in the standard: leis an fhear bheag, leis an bhean bheag, but rarely used since standard Irish rather uses eclipsis after preposition+article).

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