Review of Buntús Cainte through Actual Irish Dialects: Chapters 1-9

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  • #45477
    Dáithí
    Participant

    Chapter 8: Basically more examples of sa + noun. In all examples, sa lenites when possible.

    Chapter 9: The preposition ag is introduced with many examples. But it appears the examples all avoid, unfortunately any situation where the following noun gets eclipsed since all the examples are with d, t, or s, which according to Stenson’s book “are unaffected after an.” In the following chapters there are plenty examples with ar causing eclipsis. I wish there were examples of ag + noun eclipsing, but haven’t found one yet in the book…(update: found one in Chapter 139, ag an gcóisir.)
    In regard to this whole business of leniting and eclipsing before preposition + article, I think Stenson puts it most clearly:
    Dialects vary in the mutations found after preposition + article. Ulster dialects have the simplest system: all singular nouns are lenited after any combination of preposition + article. In Connacht, only don and den cause lenition, and all other combinations are followed by eclipsis. In Munster, and in the Official Standard, don, den, and sa lenite and the rest eclipse. (As noted before, t,d,s are unaffected after an.) .
    Any comments, examples of variations, and of course corrections are greatly appreciated.

    Reference: Stenson, Nancy, Basic Irish: A Grammar and Workbook (Kindle version).

    #45478
    Lughaidh
    Participant

    If I remember well, “sa” eclipse f in Munster: sa bhfeirm.
    And also it eclipses in set phrases: se mbreis, sa mbliain, sa mí

    #45479
    Wee_Falorie_Man
    Participant

    ag an ndoras
    ar an dtigh

    (Gaolainn na Mumhan)

    * edit: I didn’t see Lughaidh’s last post. Yeah, he’s right – “f” is eclipsed after sa.

    sa bhféar – in the grass

    #45480
    Dáithí
    Participant

    Thanks Lughaidh and Wee Falorie Man.

    One thing I’m not understanding is this:

    1. BC (Buntús Cainte) follows exactly the CO (Caighdeán Ofigiúil) rules, which follow exactly the Munster Dialect’s way of mutating a noun that follows a preposition + article combination.

    2. BC Chapter 9 has “ag an doras” yet Wee Falorie Man points out that in Munster it’s ag an ndoras.

    I know I’m missing something, but why isn’t there agreement in 2 above?

    #45481
    Lughaidh
    Participant

    1. BC (Buntús Cainte) follows exactly the CO (Caighdeán Ofigiúil) rules, which follow exactly the Munster Dialect’s way of mutating a noun that follows a preposition + article combination.

    the CO doesn’t follow any living dialect, as far as preposition+article+noun is concerned… They have mixed-up several dialects so that they get something “logical”. Well, not that logical actually but I never understood why they guys who created the CO had in mind.
    According to the Handbook, they say they will:
    – use Gaeltacht forms
    – use the most common forms in the Gaeltacht
    – use rules that follow the history and literature of Irish
    – look for regularity and simplicity.

    But very often, they simply don’t follow the rules they’ve set themselves…

    #45482
    Wee_Falorie_Man
    Participant

    the CO doesn’t follow any living dialect, as far as preposition+article+noun is concerned…

    Yup – what Lughaidh said! 🙂

    #45483
    Dáithí
    Participant

    Thanks Lughaidh and Wee Falorie Man. Well put Lughaidh. I suppose it’s “do as I say, not as I do?” 🙂

    WFM indicates that the d in doras needs to be eclipsed, yet earlier I had found from Stenson’s book the following (and why I got the impression that the Official Standard’s usage mimics the Munster dialect on this subject):

    In Munster, and in the Official Standard, don, den, and sa lenite and the rest eclipse. She immediately continues with this parenthetical note: (As noted before, t,d,s are unaffected after an.)

    One of Stenson’s examples is ag an doras (note the lack of eclipsis on d). I then searched for an example of preposition + article + noun starting in d. I finally found one – and it corroborates Wee Falorie Man’s example. The example I found is in Dillion/Ó Cróinín’s Teach Yourself Irish, page 168: Tá trucail ag an ndoras. Update: I also see his other example ag an dtigh, on page 18.

    So, something doesn’t add up, at least for the nouns beginning with t,d,s. Maybe Stenson’s comment needs to be modified as such:

    “t,d,s are unaffected after an, except in the Munster dialect” ??

    #45484
    Wee_Falorie_Man
    Participant

    Apparently, Stenson is not a speaker of Munster Irish – she is quite mistaken on this one.

    p.s. I also have some doubts about a few of the things in An Leabhar Mór Bhriathra na Gaeilge, by the way.

    #45485
    Onuvanja
    Participant

    WFM indicates that the d in doras needs to be eclipsed, yet earlier I had found from Stenson’s book the following (and why I got the impression that the Official Standard’s usage mimics the Munster dialect on this subject)

    As odd as it might sound, when it comes to mutations with prepositions, the Official Standard is closer to Connachta, the only exception being “sa” which causes lenition in the Standard (sa bhaile), but eclipsis in Connachta. In other cases, such as the verbal system, the Standard seems to lean more towards Munster Irish, using synthetic verb forms like “táimid”, though again, it frequently doesn’t coincide with it.

    #45486
    Wee_Falorie_Man
    Participant

    In other cases, such as the verbal system, the Standard seems to lean more towards Munster Irish, using synthetic verb forms like “táimid”, though again, it frequently doesn’t coincide with it.

    That’s right; it frequently doesn’t coincide with it. Even in the case that you mentioned, it would be táimíd, with a síneadh fada over the last “i”.

    Here’s the past tense of all the forms of táim, for example:
    do bhíos
    do bhís
    do bhí sé
    do bhí sí

    do bhíomair
    do bhíobhair
    do bhíodar

    do bhíothas

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