September 19, 2014 at 11:53 pm #36774
[U] = Ulster dialect [C] = Connacht dialect [M] = Munster dialect.
Please feel free to use this thread to post whatever you’d like regarding how Buntús Cainte, Chapters 10-19, would look through the actual Irish dialects.
Chapter 10: The possessive pronoun a (her) is introduced. The interrogative cá is also introduced. Are there dialectal variations for these two items? Others? Edit: Actually cá was introduced earlier, and we see more of ag + an and examples of sa.September 21, 2014 at 12:19 pm #45488
Chapter 11. The interrogative cé with the (relative?) clause atá is introduced. The preposition le is introduced, with the prepositional pronoun leat. We see a verbal noun for the first time, ag caoineadh. Are there dialectal differences when using cé atá or le? What about dialectal variations for verbal noun constructions like ag caoineadh? Go raibh maith agaibh.September 22, 2014 at 10:57 am #45489
Chapter 12 The preposition ar is introduced with plenty of examples of “ar + an” causing eclipsis.
Tá, cinnte, tá sé ar an bpláta (BC) (Buntús Cainte)
Tá, cinnte, tá sé ar an phláta (U)
The t prefix, which occurs between an and a noun, is also introduced (which I think only applies for masculine nouns?) Here’s what one example would look like in the Ulster dialect: Tá an t-im ar an mhord (U)
Corrections, additions welcomed.September 23, 2014 at 12:02 am #45490MurchadhParticipant
I’ve had a look through 10-19. Here are some dialect variations I’ve noticed (not found in 1-9):
– dinnéar = /d’i:ËˆÅ‹’e:r/ & /d’aiËˆÅ‹’e:r/ [M]
– ag an siopa = ag an tsiopa [U]
– ag an teach = ag an dtigh [M]
– níl = nín in Waterford
– atá is often athá in [M] (even where thá is rare)
– carr is often ‘cairt’ in [M]
– bhfuil tú is often bhfuilir or bhfuileann tú in [M]
– tá siad is often táid or táid siad in [M]
– gach rud = achan rud in [U]
– nach before verb = ná in [M], so ná fuil
– feicim = chím [M] & ‘tchím [U]
– raibh = rabh/robh [U] & [C]
– teacht = tíocht [C]
– éisteacht = /ais’t’É™xt/ in Waterford
– foghlaim = /fo:lÉ™m’/ [C] & [U], /faulÉ™m’/ [M]
– cén fáth is common in [C]; in [M] you’d find cad ina thaobh (pron. ca’na thaobh), cad chuige (pron. ca’tuige) & ‘dé chúis (>cad é an chúis) in Waterford; in [U], as far as I’m aware, ‘tuige & ‘tuighe (as used by Lughaidh) are common
– cá bhfuil is often cá’il in [C] (& [U] ?)
– iontach = /i:ntÉ™x/ [C] & [U], /u:ntÉ™x/ [M]
– bhí siad = bhíodar [M]
– rith = rioth /rux/ in Waterford
– raibh siad = rabhadar [M]
– riamh = ariamh [C] & [U]
– madra = madadh in [C] & [U], gadhar often more common in [M]
– nóiméad = nóimeat, nómaint (etc.?) in [M], bómaite in [U]
– bhí tú = bhís [M]
Again, expect errors/omissions.September 23, 2014 at 2:40 pm #45493OnuvanjaParticipant
Here’s what one example would look like in the Ulster dialect: Tá an t-im ar an mhord (U)
You meant “ar an bhord”, didn’t you? Though in Ulster, they would probably prefer to say “ar an tábla”, anyway. 😉September 23, 2014 at 9:25 pm #45494
Yes, and thank you Onuvanja, ar an bhord. My attempt may be the first double mutated noun, first bord gets eclipsed by m, and then the m gets lenited by h. 😆 Tá an t-im ar an tabla. (just getting in some practice).
A Mhurchadh – That’s quite a list – thanks very much! I look forward to understanding all of your findings, and where they fit into the texts.September 24, 2014 at 7:33 am #45495OnuvanjaParticipant
You’re welcome, Dáithí. Yes, I agree, there can never be too many mutations in Irish. 🙂
Going off at a tangent, I wonder if there are also dialectal differences when translating the phrase “you’re welcome”. I have the impression that in Connemara they tend to say “tá fáilte romhat” and in Ulster “níl a bhuíochas ort”, and then there’s “ná habair é”… Perhaps other members can comment on that?September 26, 2014 at 11:18 pm #45497SeáinínParticipant
I’ve never liked “tá fáilte romhat” — it sounds too Béarlachas. “Ná habair é” is a little dismissive. My favorite way of acknowledging a thanks is the phrase “go ndéana a mhaith duit”. May this thing you are thanking me for do good for you. It acknowledges the favor that has been done and ups the good will another notch.September 27, 2014 at 1:37 pm #45498
I’ve never liked “tá fáilte romhat” — it sounds too Béarlachas. “Ná habair é” is a little dismissive. My favorite way of acknowledging a thanks is the phrase “go ndéana a mhaith duit”. May this thing you are thanking me for do good for you. It acknowledges the favor that has been done and ups the good will another notch.
A Sheánín, that’s a nice phrase – thanks for explaining it.
A Onuvanja, excellent tangent! I too would like to hear what others here could say about “Your welcome.” Years ago, we had a very spirited debate here on the subject of “your welcome.” Some were adamant that “ta fáilte romhat” wasn’t real Irish. Maybe we’ll find out that “tá fáilte romhat” might not be real Munster or real Ulster, but it is real Connacht as you suggest… which I guess would still qualify it as real Irish. 🙂October 1, 2014 at 12:03 am #45499Héilics ÓrbhuíParticipant
I suspect that at one point “tá fáilte romhat” was indeed Béarlachas, although I can’t confirm that. What I can say is that it does seem to be in common use these days even among native speakers. The phrase I think sounds the most authentic would be “níl a bhuíochas ort”.
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