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I have always assumed the Irish Traveller dialect known as Shelta was so called from ‘scéalta’ ie stories/news.But I read recently that it’s derived from ‘Siúl’ to walk.Because the Travellers are always on the road.Is there any definitive answer?
As far as I know, there is no definitive answer. “Siúl” (“lucht siúlta”) is by far the most likely source word.
My guess is because it’s plural or using the adjective form?
This is all guesswork anyways, as it seems no one really knows where it came from. It sounds more likely that “shelta” would be from “siúlta” than “siúil”, even if the singular genitive is usually used in this construction (but not always, see “lucht foghlamtha”). Wikipedia is one source that seems to agree with me, but I can’t verify how correct their source is.
My guess is because it’s plural or using the adjective form?
but “siúl” has no reason to be in the plural… (and a verbal noun in the plural? that’s weird 🙂 )
It sounds more likely that “shelta” would be from “siúlta” than “siúil”, even if the singular genitive is usually used in this construction.
of course but it can also be something completely different 🙂 And why is it used to name the language and not the people? because it is the people who are travellers, not the language itself
I don’t think it’s plural, I think it’s more likely it’s the adjective form of the verbal noun, analogous to “lucht foghlamtha”.
The source Wikipedia lists for “lucht siúlta” is Kirk, J. & Ó Baoill (eds.), D. Travellers and their Language (2002), so maybe take it up with him 😉As far as why not the people instead of the language.. are the people themselves not also called “shelta”?
As far as why not the people instead of the language.. are the people themselves not also called “shelta”?
only heard of travellers, tinkers etc
I don’t think it’s plural, I think it’s more likely it’s the adjective form of the verbal noun, analogous to “lucht foghlamtha”.
The source Wikipedia lists for “lucht siúlta” is Kirk, J. & Ó Baoill (eds.), D. Travellers and their Language (2002), so maybe take it up with him 😉As far as why not the people instead of the language.. are the people themselves not also called “shelta”?
Not as far as I know.Tinkers, Travellers, Pavees.The etymology of the last named is a mystery too.The dialect is also known as ‘cant’ or ‘gammon’.Cant = caint I suppose.
I don’t think it’s plural, I think it’s more likely it’s the adjective form of the verbal noun, analogous to “lucht foghlamtha”.
Well historically, although it’s not as common today, the verbal adjective was the genitive singular of the verbal noun.
Perhaps it stems from a longer phrase, such as “lucht siúlta bóithre” where you have a double genitive relation and “siúlta”, rather than “siúil” would be called for? Something like “fear inste scéil”.
Well, as we can see from other examples, using the verbal adjective isn’t unheard of.
It’s all also speculation that it is even where the term “shelta” comes from. I guess what I was saying originally, although not very well, was that if it does come from an Irish word, siúlta looks to me the most likely candidate, but it could be something else entirely. If one actually looks at examples of shelta, it is quickly obvious that it doesn’t look very much like Irish (the average word is less similar to its Irish equivalent than siúlta is to shelta), so one can hypothesize but at the end of the day that’s all it is, until one can establish either a categorical phonemic shift from one language to the other or a literary link, which seems unlikely to happen. I’ve seen a lot of hypothesized links between Irish and English, for example, that are dubiously accurate. For example, I’ve even seen it suggested that the word “jazz” comes from “teas” (you can read about the reasons for this if you search for it), and while the reasoning may sound plausible or even convincing enough, that doesn’t make it so.
Ive heard from a few sources, including a person who speaks the Travellers Lanaguge that they themselves refer to it as the Caint or Gammon, and that Shelta is a term unknown to them and seems to have been coined in Academia.
Pavee is their own name for themselves , it means the people.
In Cork they are known by the non traveller population as “the peoples”
In Limerick, people use Pavee.Thats when they are not using a negative term to refer to them.
Can anyone provide any links to information about their language? I once read several years ago that one or more of the Traveler communities speaks a pre-Celtic language. Has anyone else heard anything like that?
I have heard that, but as far as any evidence goes it seems to be complete nonsense.
along the lines of “Irish is an ancient language descended from the survivors of Atlantis” .Ill try dig up some information on the language.
Bryan McMahon was a teacher and writer from Listowel , Co Kerry. He did a lot of work with Traveller kids. Maybe he wrote something about this? Lots of words in Caint/Shelta are Irish words that have been shuffled around like anagrams. Thus ‘buachaill’ becomes ‘bloke’. ‘Cailin is ‘lackeeen’ etc. Thnaks for all your ideas!
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