Uimhreacha

[Héilics Órbhuí]

Bím ag iarraidh le déanaí dianstaidéar a dhéanamh ar na huimreacha agus na rialacha casta a ghabhann leo. Táim ag baint úsáide as an gcáipéis seo

[url=http://www.lexiconista.com/Uimhreacha.pdf]http://www.lexiconista.com/Uimhreacha.pdf[/url]

Tá rud amháin atá ag cur meabhaill orm..

1,528 boxes = míle, cúig chéad is fiche a hocht bosca

1,528 big boxes = míle, cúig chéad is fiche a hocht mbosca mhóra

An bhfuil sé sin ceart? Cén fáth a bhfuil urú ar “bosca” sa dara ceann?

[Labhrás]

Bím ag iarraidh le déanaí dianstaidéar a dhéanamh ar na huimreacha agus na rialacha casta a ghabhann leo. Táim ag baint úsáide as an gcáipéis seo

[url=http://www.lexiconista.com/Uimhreacha.pdf]http://www.lexiconista.com/Uimhreacha.pdf[/url]

Tá rud amháin atá ag cur meabhaill orm..

1,528 boxes = míle, cúig chéad is fiche a hocht bosca

1,528 big boxes = míle, cúig chéad is fiche a hocht mbosca mhóra

An bhfuil sé sin ceart? Cén fáth a bhfuil urú ar “bosca” sa dara ceann?

I’d say it is a mistake.

Perhaps he wrote first something like:
míle, cúig chéad fiche is ocht mbosca mhóra. … and changed it to the “simplified” system.

[Héilics Órbhuí]

After looking at a different document, the Tithe an Oireachtais Caighdean Oifigiúil Athbhreithnithe, they describe the other system (whereby “is” precedes the bunuimhreacha instead of “a”, the latter of which doesn’t generally trigger mutation in larger numbers, while the former does), I think you’re right and I came to a similar conclusion. Which leads me to my next question: which do you think is the more common system? – the “is” system w/mutation or the “a” system without?

[Héilics Órbhuí]

I’m having some more issues with numbers. It seems there is a great inconsistency with the way certain texts discuss na bunuimhreacha in the genitive:

The above-mentioned document contains what I believe are mistakes, since I can’t reconcile the distinction between, for instance:

luach an aon bhád mór is fiche / dath an aon fhuinneog bhána is fiche (why the masculine uses the singular version of the adjective and the feminine uses the plural must be a mistake)

The Caighdeán Revised says:

ag oscailt aon leabhair mhóir amháin is fiche / aon fhuinneoige móire amháin is fiche (which is weird for a different reason: I thought after verbal noun that if there was a qualifying element that the genitive was not used, but regardless, in this one the noun and adjective are both predictably declined as a genitive)

This document also doesn’t say what to do about articles in this case: should it be “na haon fhuinneoige móire”, for instance?

The Christian Brothers don’t really have anything at all to say on the subject, which I found surprising.

A different document I found shows:

11. uimhir na n-aon bhus/ áit mhóra déag (with the adjective preceding “déag”, oddly)
and
21. uimhir an aon bhus mhóir / na haon áite móire is fiche

Both of which seem consistent with the Caighdeán document (with the exception of the order of “déag” relative to the adjective), although I’d like some confirmation on the treatment of the masculine “na n-aon”.

What I would like to know is definitively how to do numbers 11 and 21 look in the genitive with articles and adjectives?

[Labhrás]

Both of which seem consistent with the Caighdeán document (with the exception of the order of “déag” relative to the adjective), although I’d like some confirmation on the treatment of the masculine “na n-aon”.

What I would like to know is definitively how to do numbers 11 and 21 look in the genitive with articles and adjectives?

Urú ar aon (“na n-aon”) seems odd.
Aon is preceded by the singular article, regardless of whether déag or is fiche is used or not: an t-aon in nominative/accusative case (no matter if a masculine or feminine noun follows)

So, in genitive case, there is a singular article, too: an aon (masculine) and na haon (feminine).

The noun and adjective is in genitive singular, too.
déag is between the noun and its adjective.

Well, sources suggest no change in noun and adjective with déag or is fiche … I don’t know why
Mechura suggests no change in the article as well (except loss of prefixed t: an aon )
The CO recommends the same (“… nuair nach mbíonn déag ag gabháil leis”), but to the contrary gives as example “na haon fhuinneog déag” – strange enough.

[Héilics Órbhuí]

Well, sources suggest no change in noun and adjective with déag or is fiche … I don’t know why

The CO recommends a change for “is fiche” but not with “déag”, as shown in the examples I gave.

As far as the CO is concerned, the only ones that are not put into genitive are the “déag” ones (between that and “is fiche”, that is).

So it looks like I should follow the CO recommendations in addition to assuming “an aon” and “na haon” in front of “déag”…

I’ve started having serious doubts about the Mechura document, as there are enough mistakes in there that the fact he is probably not a native speaker seems like I should probably not rely on it.

[Labhrás]

Well, sources suggest no change in noun and adjective with déag or is fiche … I don’t know why

The CO recommends a change for “is fiche” but not with “déag”, as shown in the examples I gave.

OK, that makes sense.
Perhaps it is the same with “fichead” instead of “is fiche”.

[Héilics Órbhuí]

The main point of uncertainty for me now is whether it is “na haon fhuinneog déag bhána” or “an aon fhuinneog déag bhána”. It seems more logical to me, considering the treatment of the adjective and noun (i.e. that they are undeclined and plural, respectively) that it would be the latter, in contrast to “na haon fhuinneoige báine is fiche”. But again, it seems that a lot of sources I check differ on this point.

I realize these are somewhat fine points and people rarely say things like this anyways, but it is irritating not to have a definite answer. I’m curious what people in the various Gaeltachts do and if it contrasts in any way to what is recommended in the Caighdeán which is fairly inexplicit on the subject.

[Onuvanja]

I’ve started having serious doubts about the Mechura document, as there are enough mistakes in there that the fact he is probably not a native speaker seems like I should probably not rely on it.

Creidim gur ag iarraigh na rialacha uilig a bhaineann leis na huimhreacha a chur i dtoll a chéile a bhí sé agus bheadh sé deacair é a lochtú má thagann na foinsí éagsúla salach ar a chéile… Déarfainn féin nach minic a theastaíodh na huimhreacha móra ó mhuintir na Gaeltachta ina saol laethúil agus sin é an fáth nár cuireadh aon chóras soiléir ar bun. Ach mar foghlaimeoir, tá mé ar aon intinn leat gur mór an truaí nach bhfuil a leithéid ann. 🙂

[Labhrás]

A genitive form of the article is necessary. You cannot use “an t-aon” as a genitive form (and as well not as a dative form)
So, there are two choices:
– usage of masculine “an aon * déag/dhéag” regardless of the noun (analogous to masculine “an t-aon” in nominative)
– usage of “an aon” or “na haon * déag/dhéag” depending on the inscne of the noun. (analogous to forms without déag)

Both seems reasonable.

Unfortunately I cannot find a single example written by a native speaker (and only a few by others)
Perhaps no one says something like “of the eleven …” in Irish 🙂

[Héilics Órbhuí]

Yeah it’s obviously not “an t-aon” for genitive. Sources seem mixed on whether for déag it would be “an aon” regardless of gender, “na haon” for feminine, or “na n-aon” regardless of gender. The latter makes sense given that the “déag” numbers are treated as plurals with respect to their adjective declension, unlike the “aon ___ is fiche” numbers, which are treated as singular. I have come across this:

In imeacht na n-aon bhliain déag dar gcionn

(source is http://www.militaryarchives.ie)

but not sure if it is written by a native or not. The rest of the text looks to be accurately written.

But as you say, it seems that it’s something that is either not said or said so infrequently as not to warrant teaching it.

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