“Vacation” planning

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  • #44231
    Jonas
    Participant

    B’fhéidir… Tharlaigh sé go minic nuair a bhíos sa Fhrainc blianta ó shin. Bhíos cinnte go raibh mo chuid fraincise líofa, agus níor mhaith liom nuair a labhradar Béarla liom. Ní labhríonn duine ar bith Béarla liom sa Fhrainc anois, ach is cuimhin liom go maith ní rabhas sásta… Scríobhas alt beag air seo 😉
    https://biblio.ugent.be/publication/3214081

    #44232
    Héilics Órbhuí
    Participant

    Buiochas leat, a Jonais, as do mholtai iontacha go leir! A lan abhar machnaimh ata agamsa anois.

    D’fheadfadh a bheith an diomach nuair a fhaigheanns tu amach nach bhfuil do chumas i dteanga ar bith chomh oillte is a cheap tu. B’e an cas nuair a bhios san ungair. Bhi na daoine in ann me a thuiscint ach bhi luas a bhfreagrai i bhad ro-thapa.

    #44233
    Daithi Carr
    Participant

    Sa bhFeothanach a bhí mé, creidim. Ach mar a deirim, is dócha gur ormsa agus ar mo chuid droch-Ghaeilge a bhí an locht.

    An siopa in aice le an séipéal ?

    Táim im chónaí ar an bhfeothanigh , and as far as I can tell everyone in there Can and does speak Irish.
    AS do the vast majority of people in the Area.

    I could safely same im one of the worst for Irish in the whole area. But im not here long

    #44234
    Onuvanja
    Participant

    Sa bhFeothanach a bhí mé, creidim. Ach mar a deirim, is dócha gur ormsa agus ar mo chuid droch-Ghaeilge a bhí an locht.

    An siopa in aice le an séipéal ?

    Táim im chónaí ar an bhfeothanigh , and as far as I can tell everyone in there Can and does speak Irish.
    AS do the vast majority of people in the Area.

    I could safely same im one of the worst for Irish in the whole area. But im not here long

    Is breá liom é sin a chloisteáil. Ní cuimhne liom go baileach cén áit a raibh an siopa, ach seans go bhfuil an ceart agat, a Dháithí. Baile deas a bhí ann, ach ní raibh mórán daoine thart. 🙂

    Maidir le labhairt na Gaeilge, ceapaim féin go mbíonn deacrachtaí ar leith ag na heachtrannaigh agus iad ag iarraidh comhrá a dhéanamh as Gaeilge, mar is beag taithí a bhíonn ag muintir na Gaeltachta ag aon bhlas seachas blas an Bhéarla agus dhá bharr sin d’fhéadfadh drogall a bheith orthu Gaeilge a chur ar na strainséaraí.

    Ach, mar a dúirt Jonas, is iad na Francaigh an dream is lú foighide. 😉

    #44256
    Jonas
    Participant

    Sa bhFeothanach a bhí mé, creidim. Ach mar a deirim, is dócha gur ormsa agus ar mo chuid droch-Ghaeilge a bhí an locht.

    An siopa in aice le an séipéal ?

    Táim im chónaí ar an bhfeothanigh , and as far as I can tell everyone in there Can and does speak Irish.
    AS do the vast majority of people in the Area.

    I could safely same im one of the worst for Irish in the whole area. But im not here long

    Daithi, have you been spending some time in the area east of Dingle? I’m asking since I used to spend quite a lot of time in the Corca Dhuibhne Gaeltacht myself, mainly in Dún Urlann and Dún Chaoin, but also some time in An Mhuiríoch and An Fheothanach. I always found the entire area between these villages completely Irish speaking, and I of course found the town of Dingle mainly English speaking. What I didn’t realize at the time was that there is still some Irish left east of Dingle. As I knew Dún Chaoin to be entirely Irish, Ceann Trá to be quite Irish but not as strong, and then Dingle to be English – well, I thought at the time that Irish just kept getting weaker as one went eastwards. Then of course came the quite extensive studies on daily usage of the Irish language some 6-7 years ago. They showed that Irish is still spoken daily by more than 50% of the population in Mináird (the area with villages such as An Mhin Aird Thiar, An Mhin Aird Thoir, Gleann na Mine Airde, Log na gCapall, An Bhánóg etc) and by almost 50% in both Cinnáird (the main village of Lios Póil and several smaller villages south of it) and in An Clochán (main village of An Clochán and some small hamlets around it).

    That’s of course nowhere near as Irish speaking as An Fheothanach, Dún Urlann, Dún Chaoin or even Ceann Trá, but it means that those areas match more famous Gaeltacht areas such as An Rinn and Cúil Aodha, and would be more Irish speaking than for instance Oiléain Chléire, Corr na Mona, Teileann and Gleann Colmchille. Unfortunately I’ve only passed through them, but if you’ve spent some time in them, it would be nice to hear your impressions.

    Last but not least: even though it’s been a while since I was last in Corca Dhuibhne myself, my parents and eight friends of theirs stayed a little while in Baile na nGall not that long ago and they found it to be completely Irish speaking. My dad and his friends said they didn’t hear a word of English in the pubs. 😉

    #44259
    Daithi Carr
    Participant

    Hi Jonas ,

    I haven’t spent any time really east of Dingle in the areas you speak. so its hard to get a good impression.
    In dingle, I wouldn’t say its entirely English speaking . id say a good portion , maybe near a quarter speak Irish every day. just the impression I get from seeing and hearing people I know to be from the town and those outside.
    I will say just about everyone from Dingle, having been brought up there can speak Irish to some degree or at least fully understand it. Ive often seen people responded to in English in dingle shops and pubs , but never asked what it was they said in Irish.

    As for An Clochán , ive only been there twice. once I heard a elderly lady greet her neighbor in Irish. The other time I was standing outside the shop and only heard English. Hardly conclusive.

    Ive met lots of people from East of Dingle, I know they can speak Irish so there for must speak it sometimes. ( you cant learn it so fluently without speaking ) but in most the situations I have been in with them English has been used.

    I was in the doctors one day and a lady sat down beside a middle aged man and started talking to him in Irish, the man responded you must have me mistaken for someone else, the man turned out to be from Lios Póil, the lady asked “do ye not have Irish in Lios Póil ” , and he said” I suppose we do” , another person joined in the conversation in Irish and the middle aged man, nodded and smiled along and responded in English the odd time. So clearly he knew what was being said.

    People have told me that those east of dingle have fine Irish, but they are reluctant to use it around those west of dingle whom they view as being much more fluent and their own Irish as being poor or inferior. so maybe the lack of Irish ive witnessed spoken by people I know have Irish has something to do with this.

    Hardly conclusive empirical proof as to the linguistic strength of Irish in those areas though 🙂
    My own Irish being so poor its hard to judge just how good others are.

    #44260
    Jonas
    Participant

    Hardly conclusive empirical proof as to the linguistic strength of Irish in those areas though 🙂
    My own Irish being so poor its hard to judge just how good others are.

    Very interesting! As I said, my own experiences are even more limited. I’ve been in Cúil Aodha, though, and found it be reasonably Irish speaking so if these areas east of Dingle are as Irish speaking, they are more so than I thought. Of course, if only 50% speak Irish daily, it will mean there are many who doesn’t and that English is the community language. Still, it definitely means that Irish is far from dead in those areas.

    By the way, I once posted a long description of my experiences of Corca Dhuibhne. I post it below, and I’m sure you have your own experiences you can add 🙂

    Oh, and I wrote this when I was 22, so please excuse me sound so all-knowing 😉

    If the Irish of Dún Chaoin is looked upon as typical Munster Irish, it is of course even more so when talking about Corca Dhuibhne Irish.

    This is of course understandable. The fact that prominent Irish scholars, such as Robin Flowers, George Thomson, Carl Marstrander and many more all went to An Blascaod Mór (Great Blasket Island) to study “Irish in its purest form” made Dún Chaoin / Blasket Irish famous already by the beginning of last century. When writer after writer emerged from the Blasket, with books that made bestsellers in Irish and were translated into umpteen languages, this further enhanced the reputation of their Irish. In more recent times Dún Chaoin has produced some very fine writers, such as Pádraig Ua Ma and Máire Mac an tSaoi so it’s hardly surprising that the Irish spoken in the parish of Dún Chaoin (to which the Blaskets belong) is seen at the very least as typical Corca Dhuibhne Irish.
    Nonetheless, there are some interesting differences even within Corca Dhuibhne, even if they are quite small (we’re talking about a narrow peninsula). Before describing these differences I’ll give a short description of the area constituting the fíor-Ghaeltacht of Corca Dhuibhne for those who aren’t familiar with the area.

    1. Dún Chaoin
    Dún Chaoin is a quite small parish on the westernmost tip of Corca Dhuibhne. It has no real center, no year-round shop and no post-office. The only pub in the Parish is Krugers. Because of it’s scenic position it attracts tourists in the summer, when the population probably increases by more than 100% in August. The Blasket Heritage center is situated in Dun Chaoin, as are some tourist-shops. The parish is fully Irish-speaking and I haven’t met anyone who aren’t fluent in the language. Irish is used by everyone when discussing, and even the youngsters I’ve heard have been talking Irish to each other. There are some incomers in the area, but they have also picked up fluent Irish The treat against Irish in Dún Chaoin is not English but depopulation. The year-round population is now around 90 persons, compared with about 3.000 in the 19th century.

    2. Dún Urlann
    This is the area often refered to by outsiders as Baile an Fheirtéaraigh (Ballyferriter). The village which in English is called Ballyferriter is the centre of this parish, but it’s real Irish name is An Buailtín, and I’ve never heard anyone refer to it by any other name. An Buailtín is a rather large center (seen from a Gaeltacht perspective) with four pubs, a shop, a post-office, a restaurant, a museum, a church a book shop and some private houses. The general language in An Buailtín is decidedly Irish, but the huge influx of tourists during the summers means that English is widely heard in some of the pubs (such as Tigh Pheig) while Irish is more heard in others (such as Tigh an tSaorsaigh). Apart from the summer-months, An Buailtín is Irish-speaking.
    Outside An Buailtín, Dún Urlann consists of a number of tiny villages (about ten villages with eight to fifteen houses in each). Some of these, such as An Ghráigh, Cloichear, Tír Abhann, Ard na Caithne and doubtless many others are 100% Irish-speaking. There is, as far as I know, no village where English dominates. I’ve visited every village in Dún Urlann and hardly heard any English, except around An Buailtín.

    3. Márthain
    This parish is separated from Dún Chaoin in the west and Dún Urlann in the north by mountains. This is the part of Corca Dhuibhne of which I know least, and the only village I’ve visited in the areas is An Riasc which, with a shop and a pub, is the “center” of this parish. From my own visit and what natives have told me, the parish is completely Irish-speaking.

    4. Cill Maolcháidear
    The parish of Cill Maolcháidear is situated on the eastern shore of Cuan Ard na Caithne, facing Dún Urlann on the western shore of the bay. The rather large villages (again, with a Gaeltacht perspective) of An Mhuiríoch and Baile na nGall make up a rather compact centre with pubs, a restaurant a shop and a good number of private houses. Irish dominates throughout the parish, even if some English is also spoken.

    5. Cill Chuain
    This is probably the real stronghold of Munster Irish; I certainly know of no stronger area. Seen to percentages I would say that this parish is about as strong as Dún Chaoin and Dún Urlann. It is more populated than Dún Chaoin, though, so the risk of depopulation is not immediate. And, perhaps even more important, in contrast to Dún Chaoin and Dún Urlann on the touristy Slea Head Drive, it’s almost untouched by tourists. This means that even in the hectic summer months, this part of Corca Dhuibhne is almost free from tourists. There is no real center in this parish, just a number of small villages. From my experience they are all totally Irish-speaking.

    #44262
    Jonas
    Participant

    The original idea of that post was to give an overview of the (very small) differences in the Irish spoken in Corca Dhuibhne, mainly based on what I had heard from speakers there. I post it here in case it interests anyone, though I hope nobody takes this as an indication of major differences. I couldn’t tell the difference between a speakers from Dún Chaoin and Baile na nGall if listening to a normal conversation. At one point I refer to some previous posts I had written comparing Irish throughout Munster, but I hope these posts are understandable without having read those posts.

    In saying that Dún Chaoin Irish isn’t Corca Dhuibhne Irish I’m not saying that Dún Chaoin shows
    divergences from a common Corca Dhuibhne dialect spoken in the other parishes. There are some
    differences across the area

    1. ó in pronounced /u:/ when next to a nasal
    This is almost exclusively a feature of Dún Chaoin Irish. It takes place in almost every word in which an original /o:/ neighbours a nasal. In the Dún Urlann villages closest to Dún Chaoin, An Ghráigh, Cloichear, Tír Abhann and Baile an Chalaidh, there is free variation between /o:/ and /u:/ so that the same speaker can be heard using both sounds in the same words on different occasions. The rest of Dún Urlann and Márthain, Cill Maolcháidear and Cill Chuain all retains the /o:/ sound.

    Examples:
    word Dún Chaoin Other Parishes
    móin /mu:n´/ /mo:n´/
    fuinneog /f´n´u:g/ /f´n´o:g/
    neosad /nu:səd/ /no:səd/

    There are some exceptions in both directions. The word mór is always pronunced with an /u:/ while its comparative /mó/ is pronounced with an /o:/. At least I’ve never heard any other pronunciation myself.

    word Dún Chaoin Other parishes
    mór /mu:É™r/ /mu:É™r/
    mó /mo:/ /mo:/

    2. -lt- is pronounced /lh/.
    This phenomenon is the same as already described when comparing Munster dialects. The /lt/ is retained in Dún Chaoin and in Dún Urlann, while it becomes /lh/ in Cill and Cill Chuain. I’m not familiar with Márhtain in this case, but it should be on the “border”. Judging from this we can see that the change lt > lh which normally is associated with Cork reached almost the whole of Kerry,
    stopping only west of Dingle.

    Examples:
    word Dún Chaoin, Dún Urlann Cill Maolcháidear, Cill Chuain
    fáilte /fa:l´t´i/ /fa:l´hi/
    bailte /bal´t´i/ /bal´hi/
    oscailte /oskəl´t´i/ /oskəl´hi/

    Apart from these two changes there is not much difference within the fíor-ghaeltacht of Corca Dhuibhne. There seem, however, to have been a different pronunciation of broad L on the Blasket, which spread to the mainland of Dún Chaoin as well as An Ghráigh in Dún Urlann. In this pronunciation /l/ is pronounced a bit like a gh /É£/. Thus I’ve heard an old Blasket islander talk about /É™ se:É£ kru:ig´/ (an saol cruaidh) on the island, while another one has talked about /É™ É£a: sÉ™n] (an lá san) I’ve also heard my friends in An Ghráigh use this occasionally, but only as an option. For an interesting discussion of the origin of this phenomen, as well as other aspects of the differences within Corca Dhuibhne I can recommed Diarmuid Ó Sé’s article in “An Teanga”.

    #44268
    Daithi Carr
    Participant

    Not being able to string a proper sentence together yet in Irish I couldn’t really comment on the differences in the Irish in different areas of the peninsula.

    It does still appear to me that depopulation is a major issue for the area. There are very few employment opportunity’s outside the highly seasonal (and low paid) tourist trade.
    Young people really have to look outside the area to have a good chance of making a living.
    It would also seem to me that many of those who would be very enthusiastic about Irish also move away to work as teachers or TnaG etc. an abnormally large proportion of Irish teachers in schools around Munster seem to be from the area.
    you can see on the census results how small a proportion of 25-44 year olds there are in the area compared too around the big towns and citys http://www.airo.ie/mapping-module/atlas/regional/AIRO_IA—NUTS+111_South-West

    It would be nice to see more effort made in providing year round employment opportunity’s in the area. Which would allow more young people to stay and maybe attract more back . Many blow ins like myself seem to make some effort to learn Irish, but if the population continues to decline and the proportion of non-Irish speakers from outside the area increases it would obviously put pressure on the use of Irish as the community Language. good internet would be a great start especially since the powers that be keep banging on about a smart economy. for example it took me 6 months of complaining to finally get a temperamental internet connection of 1 mb and 10gb a month cap.

    Having said that from what ive read and looking at the census there seems to have been a increase in the number of Irish speakers in terms of numbers and proportion in between the last two census. There seems to be very enthusiastic promotion of the language which seems to be showing results. One of the reasons I moved here is that there seemed to be a much more positive attitude about the language and its vitality as a community language than some of the other Gaeltachts I visited.

    #44269
    Jonas
    Participant


    Having said that from what ive read and looking at the census there seems to have been a increase in the number of Irish speakers in terms of numbers and proportion in between the last two census. There seems to be very enthusiastic promotion of the language which seems to be showing results. One of the reasons I moved here is that there seemed to be a much more positive attitude about the language and its vitality as a community language than some of the other Gaeltachts I visited.

    Looking at how many people speak Irish daily outside the education system, there would appear to be three strong areas, as we of course all know, in Kerry, Galway and Donegal.

    Just for the fun of it, I made a little calculation. Say that a play in Irish, or a poetry evening in Irish, or a political debate in Irish is organized in a regional centre in An Cheathrú Rua, in Gaoth Dobhair and in Baile na nGall. Let’s assume people are willing to drive no more than 20 minutes to attend it. In that case, there are 8.204 daily Irish speakers within twenty minutes of An Cheathrú Rua, there are 7.234 daily Irish speakers within twenty minutes of Gaoth Dobhair and there are 2.639 daily Irish speakers within twenty minutes of Baile na nGall.

    In this regard I fear the Kerry Gaeltacht is a bit disadvantaged, because both An Cheathrú Rua and Gaoth Dobhair really are strongly Irish speaking regional centres that pull in people from neighbouring Irish-speaking districts, while of course English speaking Dingle tends to be that regional centre in Kerry.

    #44272
    Daithi Carr
    Participant

    Over 2,000 people is a fairly decent body of people to allow you to hold events etc, also its not just Daily Irish speakers who go to things. I go to events in town and the local hall and you’ll get a whole spectrum of Irish ability from struggling to understand like myself
    to completely fluent Daily and Weekly speakers.
    Just because someone speaks Irish 2-4 times a week rather than every day doesn’t mean they aren’t fluent or part of the Irish speaking community , their job might necessitate speaking through English most the time .

    Dublin has over 10,000 Daily Irish speakers, but im not aware of the same wealth of choice in events and activity’s through Irish.
    And even though Daily Irish speakers are a minority in Dingle, its quite possible to conduct most your business in the town through Irish in most places as far as I can see.

    Not sure if the same could be said for Macroom, Dungarven , Dungloe, Belmullet, or many of the other towns they are talking about making Gaeltacht service towns.

    I think when you get a few hundred people scattered in rural areas that are predominantly English speaking where the near by towns are heavily if not wholly English speaking you would have severe difficulty organizing a large number of events and services which would allow you to conduct most your day through Irish.

    #44275
    Jonas
    Participant

    Over 2,000 people is a fairly decent body of people to allow you to hold events etc, also its not just Daily Irish speakers who go to things. I go to events in town and the local hall and you’ll get a whole spectrum of Irish ability from struggling to understand like myself
    to completely fluent Daily and Weekly speakers.
    Just because someone speaks Irish 2-4 times a week rather than every day doesn’t mean they aren’t fluent or part of the Irish speaking community , their job might necessitate speaking through English most the time .

    Dublin has over 10,000 Daily Irish speakers, but im not aware of the same wealth of choice in events and activity’s through Irish.
    And even though Daily Irish speakers are a minority in Dingle, its quite possible to conduct most your business in the town through Irish in most places as far as I can see.

    Not sure if the same could be said for Macroom, Dungarven , Dungloe, Belmullet, or many of the other towns they are talking about making Gaeltacht service towns.

    I think when you get a few hundred people scattered in rural areas that are predominantly English speaking where the near by towns are heavily if not wholly English speaking you would have severe difficulty organizing a large number of events and services which would allow you to conduct most your day through Irish.

    Very good points. I used daily speakers simply because that’s the data I have for each area, I do not have data for weekly speakers. 🙂 Daily speakers is also a good indication, because a high percentage of daily speakers is a good indication that Irish is the community language. There are 20 electoral divisions in Ireland where at least 75% are daily Irish speakers. I’ve been in 17 of those 20, and I’ve heard very little English, Irish is definitely the community language in all of them. In places like An Spidéal (66%, Connacht), Anagáire (55%, Ulster) or Cúil Aodha (53%, Munster) my experience is that one will hear a lot of Irish but also a lot of English. So the percentage of daily speakers outside the education system is a pretty good indicator of whether Irish is the main community language.

    Also good point you make about Dublin. The ideal is of course to have both a large actual number of daily speakers and a high percentage. Of all electoral districts in Ireland, Gaoth Dobhair is probably the “best” in this regard, with a population of 2651 and 77% who are daily speakers.

    I’m almost sure it’s impossible to speak Irish in Macroom and Dungarvan, and I don’t know about Dungloe and Belmullet but I’d guess you’re right.

    #44280
    Daithi Carr
    Participant

    The information on weekly speakers , along with less often and never is generally given on all Census data and most interactive maps related to such. usually below the information on Daily speakers.

    if you look at say baile na sceilg 20 speak daily in and out, 30 daily out , 50 people. But a further 59 speak it weekly.
    With Daily alone it only looks like 50 out of 375 speak Irish 13%
    But 109 speak it on a regular basis , 29%.

    from the point of view of places to go to find people to speak Irish too, you could at least find a third of the people there able and willing to speak Irish.

    But I take your point as to how daily speakers can be an indication of the main community language.
    The ability (or lack) of people in the local services such as pubs and shops,etc. to speak i feel has a huge impact on the perception of Irish as a community language and probably on its use as well.

    #44281
    Jonas
    Participant

    The information on weekly speakers , along with less often and never is generally given on all Census data and most interactive maps related to such. usually below the information on Daily speakers.

    if you look at say baile na sceilg 20 speak daily in and out, 30 daily out , 50 people. But a further 59 speak it weekly.
    With Daily alone it only looks like 50 out of 375 speak Irish 13%
    But 109 speak it on a regular basis , 29%.

    from the point of view of places to go to find people to speak Irish too, you could at least find a third of the people there able and willing to speak Irish.

    But I take your point as to how daily speakers can be an indication of the main community language.
    The ability (or lack) of people in the local services such as pubs and shops,etc. to speak i feel has a huge impact on the perception of Irish as a community language and probably on its use as well.

    Absolutely, I would say that that is the difference. In a place like Baile an Sceilg, it would not be hard to find people able to speak Irish. On the other hand, a casual visitor to the area might not even hear any Irish, as English is definitely the community language. So it’s much easier to find Irish speakers in Baile an Sceilg (and many similar places) than in Dublin, but it doesn’t really feel like a Gaeltacht to me, not in the way that everything west of Dingle feels, or the whole area from An Spidéal to Cárna, or the whole NW Donegal.

    #44282
    An Lon Dubh
    Participant

    Regarding the differences in the Irish of speakers from different parts of Corca Dhuibhne, I would
    say that “in general” (from my very amateur observations!) as you move away from Dún Chaoin
    the Irish has more archaic/older features, it becomes more like Cork Irish essentially.

    For example the dative would not be as common in Dún Chaoin as in Feothanach. The genitive is more
    likely to be dropped. Of course these differences are at a very subtle level.

    For example, the dative singular is only really used, in my experience, with a few common words in
    Dún Urlann and Dún Chaoin. Further east in Corca Dhuibhne, you might see it used with feminine nouns
    in general. Then, in Cork, the dative is typical.
    Another example is the dative plural ending -(a)ibh. This is not really a part of the living
    grammar in Dún Chaoin, but is used in fixed phrases. Further east people will use it more frequently
    although still within fixed constructions e.g. Trí cinn de bhuaibh*. Then in Cork**, people will use it
    outside fixed phrases and constructions, although it still wouldn’t be common.

    That’s my general impression, but I’m no expert!

    *I know this is also used near Dún Chaoin, but this type of usage gets more common further east.
    **My experience of Cork is mostly Béal Átha ‘n Ghaorthaidh.

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