Verbal noun or verbal adjective?

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  • #36241
    Aislingeach
    Participant

    What is the difference between:

    Tá an fhuinneog ar oscailt.

    and

    Tá an fhuinneog oscailte

    Are the two structures (subject + ar + VN/subject + VA) interchangeable? Or is there some subtle difference I’m not grasping that would make the usage of one more appropriate than the other depending on what you were trying to express?

    GRMA

    #41739
    Dáithí
    Participant

    In Foclóir Gaeilge Béarla, it states that when ar is used with the verbal noun, it means “state,” e.g., ar crith = trembling.

    So, maybe:

    Tá an fhuinneog ar oscailt. The window is opening (someone is in the process of opening the window).

    Tá an fhuinneog oscailte. The window is opened. (someone already opened the window).

    #41740
    Labhrás
    Participant

    I’d say they are used synonymously.
    Tá an fhuinneog ar oscailt = Tá an fhuinneog oscailte = The window is open.

    #41741
    Bruce
    Participant

    I’d go along with that, based largely on my knowledge of Scottish Gaelic where ‘Tha litir air a cur’ = A letter has been sent; ‘bidh e air a dhèanamh’ = It will be done. The ‘a’ of course in the pronominal possessive. In fact the use of ‘air + verbal noun’ in SG has largely taken over the work of the past participle which is becoming increasingly obsolete except in a few phrases and uses like ‘toilichte’=pleased.

    #41742
    An Lon Dubh
    Participant

    I don’t think they’re the same.

    Tá an fhuinneog oscailte = The window is opened.
    Tá an fhuinneog ar oscailt = The window is open.

    The verbal adjective tends to be used for a “completed state”.

    Or

    crochta = hung.
    ar crochadh = hanging.

    #41743
    Lughaidh
    Participant

    Not sure the ‘air/ar have the same meaning, in Gaelic it’s “after” (I am after doing) but in Irish it’s rather used to express a position or a situation, you’d say “ar crochadh” “ar oscailt” etc but I don’t think you would say “tà mè ar d(h)èanamh”. What exists in literary (older) Irish is “tà mè iar ndèanamh”.
    The “tha mi air X a dhèanamh” in Gaelic would be say in Irish these ways: “tà mè i ndiaidh X a dhèanamh” or “tà mè tar èis X a dhèanamh” (and variations: th’èis, thar èis…).

    #41744
    Labhrás
    Participant

    De Bhaldraithe, English-Irish Dictionary: open […] open window, fuinneog oscailte, ar oscailt
    Ó Dónaill, Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla: oscailt […] Tá an doras ar oscailt, the door is open
    Ó Dónaill, Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla: oscailte […] Fuinneog oscailte, open window.

    So, I see no difference.

    “The window is opened” is rather: Tá an fhuinneog á hoscailt.

    (Edit: missing h prefixed.)

    #41745
    An Lon Dubh
    Participant

    Well the way I’d see it is:

    Tá an fhuinneog oscailte = The window is opened.

    as an extension of that:

    Tá an fhuinneog oscailte agam = I’ve opened the window.

    Tá an fhuinneog ar oscailt = The window is open.

    However:
    fuinneog oscailte = an open window, as oscailte is functioning as an attributive adjective.

    I would have thought that:

    Tá an fhuinneog á hoscailt = The window is being opened.

    With “á hoscailt” because window is feminined. Perhaps I’m wrong though.

    #41746
    Aislingeach
    Participant

    Thank you, everyone, for your responses. Unfortunately, I’m still not getting it. Perhaps I am just particularly dense today. I can see that, in this example, they more or less mean the same thing. But are the two structures interchangeable in all cases? Is (subject + ar + VN) the same thing as (subject + VA)?

    GRMA

    #41747
    Labhrás
    Participant

    Well the way I’d see it is:

    Tá an fhuinneog oscailte = The window is opened.

    as an extension of that:

    Tá an fhuinneog oscailte agam = I’ve opened the window.

    Tuigim anois.
    But it is a perfect tense, not simple present in English: “The window has been opened”.

    I would have thought that:

    Tá an fhuinneog á hoscailt = The window is being opened.

    With “á hoscailt” because window is feminined. Perhaps I’m wrong though.

    No, no, I’m wrong here. I forgot the h.
    And strictly speaking it is a progressive passive (“is being“).
    A simple present passive doesn’t exist in Irish. Passive is either perfect or progressive.
    The saorbhriathar is used instead: Osclaítear an fhuinneog = Someone opens the window/The window is opened

    #41748
    Labhrás
    Participant


    (double post)

    #41749
    Hugo
    Participant

    But are the two structures interchangeable in all cases? Is (subject + ar + VN) the same thing as (subject + VA)?GRMA

    No. Apart from ar oscailt examples of ar+VN that occur to me off-hand (there may well be many more – and I’ve never got round to buying FGB) are: ar crochadh; ar crith; ar s(h)iúl; ar leathadh.
    Depending on context ar crochadh = crochta (VA), and – in fewer contexts, I’d think – ar crith might = crithe (VA) e.g. ar crith leis an fhuacht= crithe ag an fhuacht, though I’d think you’d need the “agent” e.g. fuacht. I haven’t enough Irish yet to know whether ar leathadh = leata (VA) and can’t be arsed to google it. As for ar s(h)iúl (VA siúlta – definitely not.

    EDIT: Duh! Rinne mé dearmad glan ar ar fáil (VN), which might (in very occasional contexts) = faighte (VA).

    #41751

    Not sure if anyone’s interested, but from the Finnish point of view…

    ikkuna on auki = tá an fhuinneog ar oscailt – the window is “on” the open state at the moment.

    ikkuna on avattu = tá an fhuinneog oscailte – the window has been opened, implying someone’s action.

    avasin ikkunan = d’oscail mé an fhuinneog – I opened the window

    olen avannut ikkunan = tá an fhuinneog oscailte agam = I have opened the window

    BTW, are these right?

    the window had been opened while I was away (and it was open when I came back) = bhí an fhuinneog oscailte fad is nach raibh mé ann (agus bhí sí ar oscailt nuair a tháinig mé ar ais)

    the window had been open while I was away, (but it was closed when I came back) = bhí an fhuinneog ar oscailt fad is nach raibh mé ann (ach bhí sí dúnta nuair a tháinig mé ar ais)

    the window had been open while I was away, (but it was already shut when I came back) = bhí an fhuinneog ar oscailt fad is nach raibh mé ann (ach bhí sí ar dúnadh nuair a tháinig mé ar ais)

    #41752
    aonghus
    Participant

    I’d disgaree with

    tá an fhuinneog oscailte – the window has been opened, implying someone’s recent action.

    No time information conveyed. I’d consider the first two sentences to have the same meaning.

    The other sentences are tricky. “fad is” to me implies the whole duration of your absence.

    #41753
    Aislingeach
    Participant

    I think I am finally beginning to understand. Thank you for the additional examples. These showed me that I wasn’t understanding the “ar + VN” construction itself. This led to some interesting reading on the conflation of prepositions, and the “after” perfect. No idea if it’s correct, but if I look at it that way, it kind of makes sense. At any rate, I can now see a difference between the two structures, and when “ar + VN” can’t be used. Thanks again for all the input, everyone.

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