Verbal noun or verbal adjective?

[Fionlannach Fiosrach]

I’d disgaree with

tá an fhuinneog oscailte – the window has been opened, implying someone’s recent action.

No time information conveyed. I’d consider the first two sentences to have the same meaning.

You’re right, “recent” isn’t there even in the Finnish sentence. I edited it out. But still, to me it implies action that led to the state. Minor difference.

The other sentences are tricky. “fad is” to me implies the whole duration of your absence.

Would “agus mé ar siúl ón tseomra” be better? I guess there is no direct negative form of “agus mé ann”?

[Lughaidh]

Would “agus mé ar siúl ón tseomra” be better?

agus mé ar shiúl (with lenition) ón tseomra

I guess there is no direct negative form of “agus mé ann”?

you can say “agus gan mé ann” (if I understand your question)

[An Lon Dubh]

Let me try a better explanation and then see if there is anything wrong with it:

Tá an fhuinneog oscailte = The window is open/opened.

However it implies/suggests/emphasises that somebody opened it. This is
what I attempted to express as “opened”, even though it’s not a natural English
sentence. It is a state resulting from an action.

Tá an fhuinneog ar oscailt = The window is open

However here it is just a state, the window is simply open.

A big confusion for English speakers is that both the Briathar Saor
(autonomous/impersonal) and sentences with the verbal adjective
translate to the same sentence in English.

I’d also agree with Aonghus that “Tá an fhuinneog oscailte” doesn’t
translate with “has been”, since it doesn’t convey “time information”
only “state information”.

Perhaps I’m wrong on this.

[Hugo]

BTW, are these right?

the window had been opened while I was away (and it was open when I came back) = bhí an fhuinneog oscailte fad is nach raibh mé ann (agus bhí sí ar oscailt nuair a tháinig mé ar ais)

the window had been/was opened (=action) –osclaíodh an fhuinneog

the window had been open while I was away, (but it was already shut when I came back) = bhí an fhuinneog ar oscailt fad is nach raibh mé ann (ach bhí sí ar dúnadh nuair a tháinig mé ar ais)

I see no difference between ar oscailt and oscailte in your examples. Where did you get ar dúnadh? I’ve never come across this -just dúnta/druidte.

[Fionlannach Fiosrach]

I’d also agree with Aonghus that “Tá an fhuinneog oscailte” doesn’t
translate with “has been”, since it doesn’t convey “time information”
only “state information”.

Perhaps I’m wrong on this.

It’s likely you’re right about that, but I think one thing Aonghus disagreed with, was “recently” which was originally in my explanation and clearly not in the Finnish or Irish translations. “Tá an fhuinneog oscailte” does not convey an exact or vague time of the action, but an action that is now history and resulted in the present state. If we translate it like “the window is opened”, to me it implies an ongoing action, being opened.

Technically, in Finnish many verbs can be thought to have a present and past verbal adjective form, which convey time information (although perhaps vaguely), plus, we have a couple “adverbs of state” that are not strictly speaking adjectives or nouns.

The spoken language actually has phrases pertaining to doors and windows, that translate to this “ar” scheme rather well, both meaning “wide open” as the state:

“ovi/ikkuna on apposellaan/selällään” = tá an doras/fhuinneog ar (a) (h)oscailt / ar a d(h)roim.

Where did you get ar dúnadh?

I tried to apply the “ar oscailt” scheme to “dún” and its respective form… but right, not all of this stuff translates seamlessly and with the same logic pertaining to every case.

[aonghus]

I guess there is no direct negative form of “agus mé ann”?

you can say “agus gan mé ann” (if I understand your question)

Bhí mé ann/Ní raibh mé ann

Agus mé ann/ agus mé gan a bheith ann (or Lughaidh’s version)

But I’d probably use “imithe”

An “ar” works only with certain words.

[An Lon Dubh]

If we translate it like “the window is opened”, to me it implies an ongoing action, being opened.

I see what you mean. Really both “Tá an fhuinneog ar oscailt” and “Tá an fhuinneog oscailte” translate as “The window is open”, but the second has a little emphasis on the fact that it is open due to some past action. I guess the difference between them isn’t easy to render in English. Although at least the error is on writing the correct English sentence, not on some understanding of the Irish sentence (I hope! 🙂 )

Thanks for the cool information on Finnish!

[Onuvanja]

This is just a guess, but perhaps the “ar + VN” construction has evolved through analogy with the progressive tense (ag oscailt) and has less to do with the verbal adjective (oscailte)?

For example, you can say “tá an ghrian ag scairteadh” (“the sun is shining”), but in order to say “the picture is hanging on the wall”, you’d have to use “ar crochadh ar an mballa”. Similarly, “tá an siopa ag oscailt” would mean “the shop is opening right now”, as opposed to “tá an siopa ar oscailt” (“the shop is open”).

But, as was already said above, the “ar + N” construction can only be used with a limited number of verbs.

[aonghus]

Tá an siopa ag oscailt -> The shop is opening (implies that siopa is doing the opening)
Tá an siopa ar oscailt -> the shop *is* open. (no implication as to who opened it)

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