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It seems there isn’t a categorical way in which these are rendered – either it depends on the word or it is some sort of dialectical thing that I haven’t been able to zero in on. This may be sort of a nooby question, but not living in Ireland sometimes it’s hard to figure these things out.
For instance, on forvo.com, there is a pronunciation for “crainn” that sounds like (phonetically) “kreen”. Likewise “cruinn” is given as “kreen”. (I realize I’m simplifying it a little bit as there is a bit of a glide in both of them, but the basic vowel sound is there). Given that, I would sort of expect a word like “baill” to be pronounced “beel” (more or less). Is this right? Foclóir Póca gives “braillín” as “braleen” (the final vowel they use is the long i, but I don’t have that character so I’m using “ee” instead). Based on that, I would assume “baill” is more like “ball” with a slender l.
This seems to be just a slightly muddy issue for me that I’d like someone who has a native or fluent pronunciation to help with. I don’t really want more speculation, as I am capable of speculating infinitely myself 😉
I’ll go with the typical answer a question with a question.
How do you pronounce ‘chowder’ in American English? Would it be the same in Boston as in Los Angeles? The same applies in Ireland.
I would argue that English is muddier but I might be wrong:
ough? bough / cough / dough / thorough / tough / through
ea? meat / great / threat / dear / fear /bear / pear / heard / beard
o…e? dose / rose / lose
or? cork / work /word / sword
Why does answer have a w?
For what it’s worth I pronounce crainn as kreen, ball as bol and baill as bweel.
Ye could drive yerself mad with this and I’d love a phonetic language (truly).
But until that happens tuning into RnaG and TG4 and listening to podcasts is the the closest many will get to immersion.
God bless technology.Oh yeah, I surely don’t expect a single answer, just a little clarification. Your answer was definitely of help. I have given up expecting the language to be phonetic a long while ago, but there are definitely trends that one can identify based on the spelling.
I personally say “kreen” for “crainn” and pretty much any “ainn” that is stressed gets that treatment for me. Although, I can’t help but want to say something like “kron/krawn” with a slight glide and slender n at the end. I wouldn’t even know how to render how I say “baill” phonetically, as it’s something between “beyel” and “bweel” (no rounding of the lips, I’m just using w for lack of better transcriptor).
For the most part I feel my pronunciation is pretty decent for an American (I listen to a fair amount of radio and watch TV shows and movies when possible), but sometimes with specific issues like this it is somewhat necessary to ask someone who really knows. You could listen to the radio all day before you hear someone use the word you want to hear 😉
grma aríst
It seems there isn’t a categorical way in which these are rendered – either it depends on the word or it is some sort of dialectical thing that I haven’t been able to zero in on. This may be sort of a nooby question, but not living in Ireland sometimes it’s hard to figure these things out.
For instance, on forvo.com, there is a pronunciation for “crainn” that sounds like (phonetically) “kreen”. Likewise “cruinn” is given as “kreen”. (I realize I’m simplifying it a little bit as there is a bit of a glide in both of them, but the basic vowel sound is there). Given that, I would sort of expect a word like “baill” to be pronounced “beel” (more or less). Is this right? Foclóir Póca gives “braillín” as “braleen” (the final vowel they use is the long i, but I don’t have that character so I’m using “ee” instead). Based on that, I would assume “baill” is more like “ball” with a slender l.
The pronunciation of most vowels depends on whether the syllable is stressed or not.
In “crainn”, “ainn” is stressed, but in other words it isn’t. And normally, an unstressed vowel is short(ened).And “ai” may be pronounced in different ways, if it comes from the declension of a word (plural, genitive etc of a word that has “a” in the singular nominative) or not.
“baill” has an i-sound because it comes from the change of the root form “ball”. Same thing with “crainn”, which comes from “crann”.
but caill is /kaL’/ (kahl(y)), not “kuh-ill(y)”… because the “ai” is in the root, it doesn’t come from a change.Btw, pronouncing “na crainn” with a long i sound and a light slender n is Munster.
For example, in Ulster we say “crinn(y)” /kriN’/ with a short i and a ny-sound at the end.Thanks! That makes sense and mostly reflects the way I seem to do things currently without exactly knowing if I’m doing it right. The topic title is perhaps a little misleading; I just didn’t know another succinct way of asking, but I guess what I am mostly asking about is first declension masculine nouns in their genitive singular and nominative plural forms, as they are generally all stressed.
So maybe it would help to ask, for each of the following stressed vowel shifts, would you describe what happens (speaking very generally)?
all > aill
ann > ainn
arr > airr
oll > oill
onn > oinn
orr > oirrAside from knowing when to render “abh” as a vowel or to give it the “av” treatment (without having previously encountered the word, obviously), this is my only real lingering area of non-confidence in my pronunciation. I want to try to get as close to natural pronunciation as possible.
So maybe it would help to ask, for each of the following stressed vowel shifts, would you describe what happens (speaking very generally)?
in general and in Ulster, according to the examples I have in mind right now 🙂 (ie. there may be exceptions)
all > aill ie. /aL/ > /iL’/
ann > ainn ie. /aN/ > /iN’/
arr > airr ie. /æ:R/ > /æ:r’/ (but I’m not sure about this one, because I also read that it’s possible to pronounce -airr as if the rr were broad…)
oll > oill ie. /oL/ > /iL’/
onn > oinn ie. /oN/ > /iN’/
orr > oirr ie. /oR/ > ??? never heard it actually. Very few words are like that.Aside from knowing when to render “abh” as a vowel or to give it the “av” treatment (without having previously encountered the word, obviously), this is my only real lingering area of non-confidence in my pronunciation.
I can’t think of any example of -abh at the end of a word. In the middle of a word, -abha- is /o:/ in Ulster and /aw/ elsewhere, normally.
That is immensely helpful, thank you!
Yeah I have noticed that Ulster tends to be more consistent with its “abh”s than the other dialects, in which there seems to be some guesswork involved. “abh” is certainly most common, except obviously for “ábh” which is a different matter anyways. At any rate, that’s less of a concern to me, since “w” and “v” seem to be heard and spoken as almost entirely interchangeable in “mixed group” Irish these days.That is immensely helpful, thank you!
Yeah I have noticed that Ulster tends to be more consistent with its “abh”s than the other dialects, in which there seems to be some guesswork involved. “abh” is certainly most common, except obviously for “ábh” which is a different matter anyways. At any rate, that’s less of a concern to me, since “w” and “v” seem to be heard and spoken as almost entirely interchangeable in “mixed group” Irish these days.in Ulster, apart from exceptions (clusters with certain vowels etc), broad bh is pronounced like a v before L and R (bhláth, bhráthair) and w elsewhere. And slender bh is always a v sound.
Ah, I see. I definitely knew about slender bh, but I didn’t realize there was a general rule of it before l and r. That seems to be pretty consistent with the other dialects as well, but I don’t always know exactly what dialect I’m listening to, and there is probably some overlap.
For instance, on forvo.com, there is a pronunciation for “crainn” that sounds like (phonetically) “kreen”. Likewise “cruinn” is given as “kreen”.
I would have thought “cruinn” had a short /i/, whereas “crainn” had a long /i/… but never that “cruinn” can have a long /i/, as “kreen” would imply. Is it possible to pronounce “cruinn” with a long /i/ in any of the dialects?
Cruinn has a long i in Cois Fhairrge and Corca Dhuibhne… (at least). Cf. Ò Sè agus de Bhaldraithe’s works.
Cruinn has a long i in Cois Fhairrge and Corca Dhuibhne… (at least). Cf. Ò Sè agus de Bhaldraithe’s works.
Really? For some reason, I assumed “cruinn” (“precise”) and “crainn” (“of tree”) formed a sort of “minimal pair” where the lenght of the vowel helps to distinguish meaning, i.e. short i for “precise” and long i for “of tree”.
Would there be speakers of Conamara Irish out there who could confirm how they pronounce the word “cruinn” (short or long i)?
Really? For some reason, I assumed “cruinn” (“precise”) and “crainn” (“of tree”) formed a sort of “minimal pair” where the lenght of the vowel helps to distinguish meaning, i.e. short i for “precise” and long i for “of tree”.
looks like it isn’t a minimal pair in any dialect
Would there be speakers of Conamara Irish out there who could confirm how they pronounce the word “cruinn” (short or long i)?
you don’t trust Tomàs de Bhaldraithe? Cois Fhairrge Irish was his mothertongue 🙂
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