Why Don’t People Mix Dialects?

[duḃṫaċ]

But you do know that Irish and English are two completely different languages? I mean, come on, you must know that? You have to know that. Therefore any comparison between an English or an Australian accent and pronunciation with that of Texas is irrelevant as those are all English language phonologies, not the phonologies of a completely different language only distantly related to English i.e. Irish. Comparing Irish pronunciation with English pronunciation is comparing apples with oranges; it simply doesn’t hold water.

No where in my post was I talking about phonology, let alone comparing the phonology of Irish to English. For those who are bit slow today lets do the following as a logical exercise:

We have two Languages X and Y. X has two dialects X1, X2. Likewise Y has two dialects Y1, Y2.

if
{
speaker[Y1] claims that Speaker[Y2] speaks like they have dirt in their mouth due to their dialect[Y2];
then speaker[Y1] == fool;
}
else if
{
speaker[Y1] cops the fuck on and gets on with trying to communicate with speaker[Y2] && using shared features of language [Y];
}
END

how is this logically different from:

if
{
speaker[X1] claims that Speaker[X2] speaks like they have dirt in their mouth due to their dialect[X2];
then speaker[X1] == fool;
}
else if
{
speaker[X1] cops the fuck on and gets on with trying to communicate with speaker[X2] && using shared features of language [X];
}
END

(%s/Y/X/g)

It’s exactly the same logic apart from the fact that I’ve done a global string replacement of value Y with that of value X — (%s/Y/X/g). The fact that X and Y are completely different languages from each other doesn’t matter if anything it’s completely immaterial to the point.

[Crotach]

Er, and if either of those speakers is not a native speaker of the language being spoken? I agree that saying that someone has dirt in their mouth is uncalled for. But you’re not seriously claiming that the Irish/French/Italian etc of a LEARNER of either of those languages should be regarded as being equivalent to that of a NATIVE speaker?

Dude, chill.

In this example, we were talking about two people who learned Irish at school. One who learned Ulster pronunciation and one who learned Munster pronunciation. Neither is a native speaker.

It’s that not important anyhow, I just used it as an illustration of a point.

Ach go raibh maith agat fá choinne do chinéaltas, a Dhubhthach!

[duḃṫaċ]

But you’re not seriously claiming that the Irish/French/Italian etc of a LEARNER of either of those languages should be regarded as being equivalent to that of a NATIVE speaker?

No where in my post did I make such a claim, if you can find such a claim then obviously I need to go to specsavers and change my prescription, but hey lets take my “algorithim” (*cough*) and mix it up.

#include
#include

$Y=Irish;
$Y1=Ulster; /*Native Gaeltacht dialect */
$Y2=Munster; /*Native Gaeltacht dialect */

$X=English; /*L1 lang of both speakers*/

$L2-dialect1 = function{L2(influence-dialect = $Y1)/L1 where L1 == $X}
$L2-dialect2 = function{L2(influence-dialect = $Y2)/L1 where L1 == $X}

$Speaker1 = speaker{L2-dialect1}
$Speaker2 = speaker{L2-dialect2}

if
{
$Speaker1 claims that $Speaker2 (speaks like they have dirt in their mouth) due to $L2-dialect2
then $Speaker1 == fool;
}
else if
{
$Speaker1 cops the fuck on and gets on with trying to communicate with $Speaker2 && using shared features of language [Y];
}
END

Going by the original quote both speakers were L2 speakers, though at least one of them grew up probably with more passive exposure to L1 speakers (Cloch Cheann Fhaola and general area). The other speaker with “munster dialect” (in reality school-Irish thought in with munster “slant”) displays typical issue of not been willing to exist outside their comfort zone. They have a pre-conceived notion of what they believe is right, anything that doesn’t meet that criteria is dirt. (heck they probably feel the same about actual L1 speakers of other dialects).

A native speaker is always going to have better ability then a L2 speaker, if an L2-speaker takes a snotty view of L1 speaker then he’s an idiot (example: “oh that’s bogger speech” etc. etc.). The goal is to try and get as close as possible to an L1 speaker (particularly when it comes to phonology and idiom in my opinion)

I work with plenty of L2 speakers of English (Slovak, Brazilian, French etc.), I’m a L1 speaker of “Supraregional Irish English”. Do I get in a hissy fit when someone who is maybe not the strongest at English is at least making the effort to communicate with me? No I don’t but I know that (a) they are making effort within best of their abilities (b) actual communication is more important then if he can pronounce th just like I do (c) they ain’t telling me that my dialect doesn’t match what they learnt in school and is thus wrong.

Likewise I dont get offend when codemonkies tell me that my PseudoCode is distinctively L2! (sub-L2 even!)

[Daithi Carr]

is there a comprehensive course in an caighdeán which includes a guide on phonetics ?

[Crotach]

In fairness, we all need to chill out.

That’s true.

Would it be too much to ask that you stick to the points of your original post?

I have been. The comment about that example (Ulster L2 and Munster L2) was in reference to my original post.

You ask us why do learners not want to mix dialects without asking why any learner WOULD mix dialects? If native speakers among themselves had over time created a standard spoken native Irish that would be fine as an object of study for the learner but that doesn’t exist. The only people who mix dialects are L2 speakers i.e. learners, ergo, mixing Irish dialects is something which native English speakers do.

Fair point.

Native speakers haven’t created a standard. If they did once, it’s now dead. Fair enough. But, we, for the most part, are not native speakers nor are most of us, from an area where one particular type of Irish is prevalent.

We are not just learners of the language, we are speakers too. L2 speakers yes but still living in Ireland and speaking Irish. It seems to me, therefore, that facilitating communication should be a priority and, in my experience, learning from different dialects and being able to switch between or blend them has made that easier.

Contrary to what has been said elsewhere, native speakers cannot always understand each other easily. I know many people up here who often struggle with Conamara and usually only get the gist, at most, of Munster natives. I think exposure to dialects and differences, not L1 fluency in a dialect, is usually the primary determiner of who can understand whom.

Surely if people spoke Irish more often- and especially if school learners were encouraged to use what they know- then the overall standard of spoken Irish on the island would improve. In a continuum of pure Caighdéan to pure dialectal Irish, Gaeltacht phonologies would bleed through the language because there would be so much more cross-pollination. An organic, idiosyncratic Caighdéan would evolve.

Also, to dispense with an old bugbear, I am not advocating an anything goes approach to phonology, nor am I suggesting that Hiberno-English and Irish use the same sounds. I do understand and agree that learner should choose one of the Gaeltacht phonemic systems as opposed to the Lárchanúint, and, I personally aim to speak with the Donegal blas I learned growing up.

But there is so much more to dialect than phonology.

That’s why I asked the question. Why don’t learners want to draw from multiple dialects and the Caighdéan if they want to be autonomous speakers and communicate with all speakers of Irish?

I asked out of curiosity and really didn’t want it to get so out of hand. I’m happy to for me to potter along and do my thing and let others do theirs too.

Tá sé ag éirí déanach anois. Oíche mhaith.

[féabar]

Saw another interesting thing today on Facebook. These folks have given their lives to this language.

1) Are they and their children “native speakers” in some way? Interesting question.
2) Have they helped or hurt the survival of the Irish language?
3) Has each of us done as much for the language?
4) Have you raised your children in Irish/ or do you plan to raise your children in Irish?

http://vimeo.com/34665736

[Daithi Carr]

Saw another interesting thing today on Facebook. These folks have given their lives to this language.

1) Are they and their children “native speakers” in some way? Interesting question.
2) Have they helped or hurt the survival of the Irish language?
3) Has each of us done as much for the language?
4) Have you raised your children in Irish/ or do you plan to raise your children in Irish?

http://vimeo.com/34665736

Great video, very interesting to watch , the idea of setting up areas where people interested in the language can live their life through it is in my opinion something that other city’s could look at.

I dont think there could be any doubt about it, they learned the language fluently from their parents from a young age . Even though there was a break in the transmission of irish through the generations , they are native speakers, even if the Irish they speak is a bit different from what was there in the past.

how could this hurt it in anyway?

[féabar]

Daithi:

These people did not learn from their parents. If you watch the video you’ll see how they all took classes together. I think it’s pretty amazing
and it’s an encouragement to me that perhaps someday I can speak with some fluency. I listened to Radio na Gaeltachta this morning and although
I understand way more than I did a year ago, I’m astonished that I can’t understand more. I learned to be conversant in Spanish years ago in about 3 months. I’ve been in this language about 4+ years now and I’m flabbergasted at how little I really know. I think it is just that there is no one to talk
to. In Texas, Spanish is ubiquitous. Hence, with any effort at all a person can learn it. There are few people available to speak Irish with. I’m totally impressed with what the people in this video have done. I am sure their accent, etc would be assailed by purists, but they are doing so much even in an environment where it might have been politically dicey and dangerous to even show an interest in Irish. That is nothing but impressive.

[Daithi Carr]

sorry i wasnt very clear there , i was referring to the previous post asking if their children would be considered native speakers.
children they spoke the langauge to from a young age, all be it a language of very fluent non native, id still consider their children native speakers .

Is there not some online forum that Irish speakers can talk to each other via skype etc?

[Héilics Órbhuí]

Is there not some online forum that Irish speakers can talk to each other via skype etc?

If there is/were, it would almost assuredly be dominated by learners. Learners speaking to one another really is of minimal to non-existent benefit, based on every single thing I’ve ever read about language learning. If you are to make actual progress, you need to to speaking with native speakers. In the case of Irish, this would probably mean hiring actual native speakers to be available on the forum to talk to people. Not enough of them would naturally find their way there and want to spend that much time talking to learners just to help them. I’m sure a few would, but not enough to meet demand. Like every single other Irish forum I’ve ever seen, it’s almost all learners. I don’t think there is even a single native speaker on this forum. Honestly, I would rather watch TV and listen to radio spoken by native speakers than spend time speaking to people who weren’t at least fluent. That might seem silly, but I think conversation circles and such with only learners makes people feel like they’re learning far more than they actually are. It’s like learning a martial art in a gym. You are only “fighting” or sparring with people who study your art. The instant you go to fight someone who is a boxer or some other system, you will not know what they are going to be throwing at you.

[Daithi Carr]

i wouldn’t necessary agree there , i know a lot of people who practiced the basics of making a conversation with other learners, the forcing yourself to think of how to convey what you want and construct a sentence is good practice , which is a good step on the road to fluency.

like your gym analogy, people don’t become good at fighting by stepping in to the ring and getting their ass handed to them by a professional fighter time and time again until they can fight by a pro, you train, build muscle memory etc, maybe you wont take on a boxer but you will do a hell of a lot better than someone who just read a lot of good books about boxing.

The brain similarly needs to be exercised until it gets to the point it can complete a task

[féabar]

I agree with Daithi:

I spent about 150 hours (one hour each Sunday) for the last 2.1/2 years talking for 1 hour with a guy from Kildare. He had learned school Irish and
he was patient with me. He was a guy in his early 70’s and his goal was to be absolutely fluent before he died. We started with the most basic questions (a sheet I got at Oideas Gael) and then we read a total of 7 books together starting with the very basic wonderful series by Tadgh McDhonnagain. Unfortunately he got cancer, and suddenly died last month. It hit me really hard. I went to Ireland from Texas and visited him in hospital. He had lost his lovely wife just 60 days prior to cancer as well. It was all horrible. Although he wasn’t fluent, he knew good Irish and was always in the top Liofa level at Oideas Gael. We would read a paragraph and then he might ask me what was going on in the story. He just got me talking. He pulled me up to being an intermediate speaker from pretty much NOTHING. Before that I could read and write but couldn’t hardly speak. I now pick up new stuff on Gaeilge Amháin in Facebook. There are some top top level Irish speakers on there. Some work as official translators etc. I always give special attention to their posts. I also have started listening every day to RNG for 10-15 minutes/day just to pick up correct pronunciation etc. I would love to go through books with anyone who is out there at about my level or higher. I figure ANYTHING I/we can do to progress is better than nothing. I find many at our level have gone through different journeys and have different knowledge so we can actually help each other along quite a bit.

[Daithi Carr]

I am very sorry to hear that féabar, clearly he meant a lot to you, traveling all the way from Texas to visit someone in hospital is a huge journey, which im sure he must have been happy you made. Sorry for the loss of your friend ,ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam .

How did you meet him and organize to talk online?
I dont think I know many 70 year olds savy enough to use skype.

[féabar]

I met him the first time I went to Oideas Gael in 2010. I knew about 100 words in Irish because I had worked my way through 12 lessons in Tús Maith. He carried the conversation as he was pretty fluent in Irish. At Oideas Gael he invited me to eat in the little cantina with him and we were always surrounded by other fluent speakers who would sit and converse with him and they’d ask me the simple stuff (introductions etc) After the week there, I asked him if he would like to Skype. He was very savvy technologically because he was a retired telecommunications engineer with British Telecom.

The first few sessions we just followed a question sheet I had got at Oideas Gael. Stuff like, “Cad é a rinne tú inniú? Cad fath an ndearna tú sin? etc.” Then he suggested we read a book together by Tadhg MacDhonnaigan. It was a little story about Fionn MacCumhall. I bought the 4 book series with the CD and we would read several paragraphs to each other and then we would say what it means. Then he began asking simple questions about the story. Ex. Cá a raibh Fionn nuair a thosaigh an trioblóid? and stuff like that. I would stammer and struggle to answer it. IT GOT ME TALKING!

I saw him again when I returned to Oideas Gael the next summer. He invited me to spend a couple of night with him and his wife in Cildara. I went there and we ate great food and had a grand time. He took me all around Manooth and he spoke very little English to me ever. After that second summer, we were working our way up through more advanced books. and we were in the last chapter of “Gaeilge agus Grá” by Allen Desmond. He told me one day that he was worried because of soreness in his wife’s arms. He took her to the doctor the next week and she had cancer and died within 60 days. We waited a month to have our next Skype because he was so down. When we did, he was weak and looked horrible. He said he was tired. I tried to encourage him and told him I wanted to bring him to Texas at Thanksgiving. He was delighted and it seemed to cheer him up.

The following week he went to the doctor and found out he himself had lung cancer. My wife and I decided to go seem him, so 45 days later we did so (Aug 13). We read the last bit of our book together and then he said he would like go to the chapel together. We said prayers for him and he told a priest that walked in that he wanted us to take communion. We did and then we left. We then went to Derry to the Fleadh Cheoil. When I got home to Texas, I got an email from his daughter that he died the day after we returned. I am so so indebted to him for all he did for me. I am indebted to him for his patience and kind nature. I wouldn’t be able to converse without his help. That is why I sometimes sound impatient by perfectionists that I find on the forum. To strive for excellence is noble. But, perfection is the greatest enemy of good. You can accomplish a whole lot with “good”. Perfectionism often results in limited results that do not extend beyond self. Everything Criostóir Ó Nuallain did extended beyond himself. How incredibly blessed I have been on my Irish journey. Sorry to ramble, but I felt you should hear the highlights of my story.

[Onuvanja]

Thanks for sharing that with us, Féabar! Your friend must have been an exceptional human being and he obviously found the time spent helping you worth while.

[Author]

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