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Saw another interesting thing today on Facebook. These folks have given their lives to this language.
1) Are they and their children “native speakers” in some way? Interesting question.
2) Have they helped or hurt the survival of the Irish language?
3) Has each of us done as much for the language?
4) Have you raised your children in Irish/ or do you plan to raise your children in Irish?Agus tá leabhar ann chomh maith. http://coisceim.ie/dimighsin.html
Actually, down south they would say “go raibh maith as do chineáltas” but perhaps “fá choinne” could be used in that way in Donegal (Lughaidh?)
It’s a shame we don’t spend more time discussing grammar and translation issues on here. I’d much rather spend my time helping people with those.
While “fá choinne” is used that way often enough in Donegal – out-and-out béarlachas, I’d think – “grma ar son ruda” is more usual. Other examples of Béarla -influenced misuse of “fá choinne” by Donegal native speakers I’ve heard recently on RnaG: 1- “”Tá muid ag gabháil go Londain fá choinne míosa,” 2- “Tá clú agus cáil ar an cheantar fá choinne na radharcanna ghalánta.” And just yesterday I heard “Bhí mé ag amharc fá choinne jaib.” In ainm Dé!.
Hugo:
Not understanding why you’re saying “fá choinne” is “out-and-out Béarlachas”. My first teacher was a native Irish speaker (professor at St Thomas University in Houston). Her mother was from Aran Mór (Donegal) and her father was from Waterford. She presented “fá choinne” as good irish in Donegal. She explained that it meant “for the expectation of” and said it was followed by a noun. She told us that it is the same as saying “le haigh” in more southern areas. Not quite sure what you’re saying here.
I think he’s saying that the usage of it to mean certain things is Béarlachas, not that the phrase itself is Béarlachas. If you read the examples he gave, they are indeed English constructions – you wouldn’t ever say it to refer to going somewhere “for” a period of time, famous “for” a lovely view, or looking “for” a job. At least that’s consistent with my understanding. The last one is tricky, as I think you could say you were preparing “fá choinne jaib” but using it in combination with “amharc” seems definitely wrong to me.
Thanks Héilics. That makes it clearer. I remember the teacher saying such things (I may not have them just right).
Bhí mé ag casadh le cara liom fá choinne lón. or… Chuaigh muid go dtí an bhíalann fá choinne dinnéar.
Lughaigh would be the person to ask, really. I definitely don’t know as much about Donegal (or any Ulster dialects) as I do about the others, so I could be mistaken. But at least that’s what I think Hugo meant by his post 😉
I think he’s saying that the usage of it to mean certain things is Béarlachas, not that the phrase itself is Béarlachas. If you read the examples he gave, they are indeed English constructions – you wouldn’t ever say it to refer to going somewhere “for” a period of time, famous “for” a lovely view, or looking “for” a job. At least that’s consistent with my understanding. The last one is tricky, as I think you could say you were preparing “fá choinne jaib” but using it in combination with “amharc” seems definitely wrong to me.
I agree with you 🙂
To mee, “to look for” is rather “cuartú”. Tá mé ‘cuartú jab. But “amharc fá choinne” sounds like Béarlachas.Bhí mé ag casadh le cara liom fá choinne lón. or… Chuaigh muid go dtí an bhíalann fá choinne dinnéar.
the use of “fá choinne” sounds right here
(there are other things that don’t look right though, I’d say “Bhuail mé le cara liom fá choinne an lóin” and “Chuaigh muid ‘na bialainne fá choinne an dinnéara”)Féabar,
Héilics has saved me the trouble. 🙂 There seems to be a tendency among some/many Donegal speakers to use “fá choinne” in many contexts for English “for” – as if they were English-speaking learners thinking in English rather than native Irish speakers, who should not be thinking in English. It shows how much pressure Irish is under from English even in strongholds like Gaoth Dobhair (from where my examples are taken). Since you speak Spanish, “ag amharc fá choinne” instead of “ag cuartú” would be like saying “mirando por” instead of “buscando”.(On the other hand there’s “amharc i ndiaidh”. Does anyone know if this just coincidentally mirrors the English “look after”, or if it came from English, albeit a good while ago?)
In Donegal “fá choinne” is used with verbs/verbal nouns also (as well as “le/chun”) , to express purpose. “Tá muid anseo fá choinne Gaeilge a fhoghlaim”; “Seo áit mhaith fá choinne iascaireachta”.
Lughaidh,
“Fá choinne (an) dinnéara”. The article is often omitted, and, when talking about going out for dinner to a restaurant or to someone else’s house, I think use of the article would sound strange.(On the other hand there’s “amharc i ndiaidh”. Does anyone know if this just coincidentally mirrors the English “look after”, or if it came from English, albeit a good while ago?)
my old teacher told us it was a Béarlachas and that the native idiom was “aire a thabhairt do…”.
“Fá choinne (an) dinnéara”. The article is often omitted, and, when talking about going out for dinner to a restaurant or to someone else’s house, I think use of the article would sound strange.
yeah you are right; I learnt it with the article, I think, but it looks like the article can be omitted ; I first thought it was a Béarlachas too, but Tobar na Gaedhilge gives a few examples of it without the article, so I don’t think it can be a Béarlachas.
In Breton we also omit all the time the article before the names of the meals of the day (well it doesn’t mean anything because they are very different languages, but it’s interesting to notice it)Just out of interest, would anyone know what is the etymological background of “fá choinne”? Is it derived from the word “coinne” (appointment) and expressions like “ní raibh coinne agam leis” (I wasn’t expecting it)?
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