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A Lughaid,
Go raibh míle maith agut as an chabhair (<-lenition, fem.sg.nom.!!!). Ach tá sé ag dul i ndéanaí. Bead staidear a dhéanamh orthu amárach. (An raibh sin ceart?)
you’d say “cleite de chuid an choiligh” (feather from the share of the cock).
Of course! The ‘ol “cuid”! Handy word, that.
Is togha fir thú, a chara, GRMA! 🙂
LOL, I knew it was too simple! That tears it. I will have my children give me a list of nouns, cull the first declension ones and practice, check it against FGB, and seek assistance here for the ones that confuse me.
Ok, so how would you say “a feather of the cock”? Different structure, perhaps?
As always, GRMA!
Haigh
Ok, I’ve been studying úru and séimhiú tonight from Diarmuid Ó Sé’s Teach Yourself Irish. I went to support my learning from the internet and suddenly rules for male and female became muddled up when using Mo, Do, etc. I’m really confused.
According to my book. Diarmuid says Lenition only affects consonants and is applied to male words. A sheoladh (his address) a seoladh (her address). So a following consonant after mo, do and a (his) and not a (her) is shown by adding an h after the initial consonant. Like a mháthair (his mother) – a máthair (her mother).
Then, if the following word begins with a vowel we add an h before a feminine word. a hainm (her name) a ainm (his name). This confused me, so this is not lenition anymore? Female words and vowels do not lenite but we add an h infront for feminine words?
What if a girl wants to say ‘my name’ m’ ainm. Does she have to say m’ hainm? Which might mean if I ask a girl/woman ‘cad is ainm duit’ I should say: Cad is hainm duit?
Somebody once said on this forum about the non mutating consonants:
” HaLoRaN was a hard man who couldn’t be softened (lenition)
MS HaLoRaN was his sister and her beauty could not be eclipsed. ”
This has confused me greatly.. it sounds opposite of what I’m reading. Maybe it is because those consonants don’t mutate and not implying that the feminine can not be eclipsed. I hope somebody understands me. It’s 04:23 right now, so I might be typing badly.
Go raibh maith agaibh!
Fair play to Lughaidh for the explanation. My head would explode if I thought about mutation in its entirety!
Yes, the HaLaRoN things are just mnemonic devices to remember which letters don’t mutate The second one has nothing to do with gender, only eclipses (although I have issues with “s” being included!). As Fionnlannach Fiosrach, said, it’s an odd bird.The whole subject of mutation was so mind boggling that I had to break it down. First I learned what lenition is and the letters it affected. Then I learned what eclipses is, and the letters that it affected.
After that I took, and am still taking, it one grammatical situation at a time. For example, the possessives mo, do and a all cause lenition, so I worked with those until it was fixed in my brain to lenite after them.
Currently, I am working on lenition caused by the article “an”.
Although there is a very nice overview of the rules in my book, and Lughaidh provided one above, I have to digest it in manageable chunks, with the help of the kind people on this board when I’m stuck or confused.
yeah “múin Gaelainn duit féin” is right. Not “díot” because it means “off you” 🙂
Grma, a chara.
“A genitive makes the preceding word definite only if the genitive is definite itself”
Noted! 🙂 And is that why there is no article before the preceding word (an cleite an choiligh)? Because the definite genitive makes that word definite also, so only one article is needed?
The nominative plural is the same as the genitive singular, and the nominative singular is the same as the genitive plural in the first declension? Have I got that right? That seems far too simple….
That’s what I see, Aislingeach. Of course it is better than nothing. Don’t you agree? Maybe I didn’t see its good parts.
It appears you may have interpreted my comments as sarcasm. On the contrary, I find it extremely advantageous to be forewarned of the obstacles I face. Accordingly, your observations were helpful. The more challenges, the more complete my education will be. And a challenge always gets my Irish up, thus, you have encouraged me. 🙂
Aw, crumb. It appears I may not have put the entire thing in the binder, then. I see now that Lesson I starts on page 25, and I never even noticed! No doubt the first few pages are still on my desk at work
Yes, indeed! Right beneath my monthly report (tuarascáil míosúil?). Lovely, the rules for aspiration and the rules for eclipsis!
How would one translate “Teach yourself Irish”? Múin Gaelainn duit féin? díot féin? I like to label my notebooks as Gaelainn.
There is little practice in this textbook, practically no texts, auwful transcription. The grammar is given in a not very pragmatic way, and the vocabulaty is not so useful.
Thank you for your encouragement! Most helpful. 🙂
When I first started that book, I also knew that I was going to need a lot more practice with the nouns so here’s what I did:
First I wrote out the very first word that they give you:
bád – boat
an bád – the boat
na báid – the boatsThen instead of just writing the genitive by itself, I tried to use it in a little phrase, both with and without the article:
taobh báid – the side of a boat
taobh an bháid the side of the boatI just kept making little phrases for every word on page 25 and then throughout the whole lesson.
These little phrases also help out with vocabulary:
coileach – cock
an coileach – the cock
na coiligh – the cockscleite coiligh – a feather of a cock
cleite an choiligh – the feather of the cockNow besides learning the word for “cock”, I have also learnt the Irish word for “feather, i.e., cleite.
Anyway, that’s how I made my way through the earlier lessons of Teach Yourself Irish.
I’m hoping that someday somebody might want to start a study group with that particular book.
* hint, hint Cionaodh 😉An excellent suggestion. which I shall certainly utilize! GRMA! However, if I use only the words in the lesson, for which I have already been given the genitive and plural, I fear that may not help me much in practicing how they are formed, or knowing if I am doing it correctly. I wish there was some type of workbook for TYI, such as Nancy Stenson provides for LI. Actually, I should have another look at that. Perhaps it has something I could use. Which leads me to another question. A foolish question perhaps, but my study materials are such an amalgamation of dialects…..oh, the joys of low-budget learning!
Are there spelling differences across the dialects which could put a noun into a different declension in Munster, or has the CO rendered that unlikely?
So thrilled to finally have something fairly comprehensive specific to Munster Irish! A HUGE thank you to Lughaidh for pointing out that this was available online! 🙂
GRMA, a Lughaidh! 🙂
Actually, they mentioned it before Lesson 1 on page 13 under “Rules of Aspiration”. One of the hard things about this book is that there is very little repetition; they will often mention something only 1 time (sometimes in a small footnote) and they expect you to remember it throughout the rest of the book – yikes!
Aw, crumb. It appears I may not have put the entire thing in the binder, then. I see now that Lesson I starts on page 25, and I never even noticed! No doubt the first few pages are still on my desk at work.
I know exactly what you mean – I love Munster Irish! I managed to work my way through Teach Yourself Irish last summer but it is sometimes hard to remember all of the grammar points that they mention. One thing’s for sure, if you can remember everything that they teach you in this book, you will be virtually fluent!
I see that they do not include any practice nouns for forming genitive singulars and plurals for the first declension, just a couple of examples. It won’t stick for me if I don’t work some, preferably several, to hammer it home. I guess I could cull some from the dictionary for practice. Or would it be more expeditious to just memorize them along with the noun itself?
Go raibh maith agaibh.
It would have been helpful if they had mentioned that in their statement about the intial mutations caused by “an.” At first I wondered if it was a typo. I am glad that when I printed the .pdf I left the pages one-sided. Now I have a place for notations such as this. It is hard not to get ahead of myself when I am so excited about something! Another question….”ná fuil” is “nach bhfuil” elsewhere?
GRMA, arís!
lol
I’ve learnt a part of what I know in books (but maybe you haven’t bought them yet 🙂 ), another part in Coleraine university, and another part by observing by myself how native speakers speak or write (or wrote, because nowadays very few books are edited in the real dialects, because most publishers want everything in standard Irish, I don’t know why).The “modern” genitive of Lughaidh is simply Lughaidh. In “older Irish” it was Luighdheach. 🙂
Can’t believe I spelled genitive wrong! My english spelling has gone to hell since I started studying Irish. But perhaps that’s appropriate, given the history of Gaeilge…..
With the exception of my dictionaries (FGB and DeBaldy), Learning Irish and Leabhar Mór Bhriathra na Gaeilge, all of my study materials are what I can find online, free of charge. I am saving most of my money, so I have to choose very carefully what to purchase. But I did find Dineen’s online, as well as Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí (somewhat useless to me at present!). And now TYI, thanks to you. I am hoping to spend a month in Dún Chaoin later this year, which will help more with pronunciation than all the recordings ever made. I’m very excited to start the TYI lessons, though, and I’m sure I will have many more questions. I am extremely thankful to have such knowledgable people to ask!
all dialects. There may be a very few exceptions.
One exception for instance: in Cleare Island Irish (Co. Cork), “sé” becomes “sae”, “sì” becomes “suì” after certain verbal forms that end with a broad consonant, eg. (from memory) : “he goes”: téann sae instead of “téann sé”.Grma, a chara. I appreciate your patience with my questions. The things I learn from you are not usually found in my study materials, thus all the more valuable. Soon I will need a separate binder just for “Notaí Lughaidh.” (I have no idea how to put your name in the genetive!)
people don’t pronounce like that. I think it is always the following consonant that influences the preceding one, to make it slender or broad, not the opposite.
Does this hold true across the dialects, or is it specific to Ulster/Gaoth Dobhair?
