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Thanks guys! These are great.
The dictionary, like Ó Dónaill’s.
I feel pretty dumb for not having thought of that… Thank you 🙂
Níl fhíos ar bith agam a chara. Cad deireann an dlí fostaíochta i dTexas? B’fheidir mar deireann tú go cineál bonus atá sé, in áit bpá? Nó pá fá choinne obair eile (an caint)?
Nach mbeidh d’oibrithe eile mí-shásta? Agus, an bhfuil tú sásta seo a dheanamh do achan oibrí eile má bhíonn siad sásta labhairt leat?
Scéal suimiúil atá sé. An bhfuil mórán Gaeilge aige? An raibh sé ag caint Gaeilge leat i roimhe seo?
Char rinne mé an dioplóma ach tá súil agam é a dheanamh an bhlian seo chuigeann. Rinne mo chara é agus thaitnigh sé go mór leis. Bhí sé liofa ina dhiadh.
An bhfuil tú ag iarraidh é a dheanamh i nGaillimh nó san Acadamh i gCeathrú Rua?
Tá cúrsa aistriúcháin ag Gaelchultúr- tá eolas le fháil anseo:
Tá tú ábalta céim a dheanamh i nGaeilge agus Léann an Aistriúchán i hÓllscoill na Gaillimhe freisin, ach b’fheidir nach bhfuil tú ag iarraidh cúrsa chomh fhada sin a dheanamh?
In fairness, we all need to chill out.
Would it be too much to ask that you stick to the points of your original post?
I have been. The comment about that example (Ulster L2 and Munster L2) was in reference to my original post.
You ask us why do learners not want to mix dialects without asking why any learner WOULD mix dialects? If native speakers among themselves had over time created a standard spoken native Irish that would be fine as an object of study for the learner but that doesn’t exist. The only people who mix dialects are L2 speakers i.e. learners, ergo, mixing Irish dialects is something which native English speakers do.
Native speakers haven’t created a standard. If they did once, it’s now dead. Fair enough. But, we, for the most part, are not native speakers nor are most of us, from an area where one particular type of Irish is prevalent.
We are not just learners of the language, we are speakers too. L2 speakers yes but still living in Ireland and speaking Irish. It seems to me, therefore, that facilitating communication should be a priority and, in my experience, learning from different dialects and being able to switch between or blend them has made that easier.
Contrary to what has been said elsewhere, native speakers cannot always understand each other easily. I know many people up here who often struggle with Conamara and usually only get the gist, at most, of Munster natives. I think exposure to dialects and differences, not L1 fluency in a dialect, is usually the primary determiner of who can understand whom.
Surely if people spoke Irish more often- and especially if school learners were encouraged to use what they know- then the overall standard of spoken Irish on the island would improve. In a continuum of pure Caighdéan to pure dialectal Irish, Gaeltacht phonologies would bleed through the language because there would be so much more cross-pollination. An organic, idiosyncratic Caighdéan would evolve.
Also, to dispense with an old bugbear, I am not advocating an anything goes approach to phonology, nor am I suggesting that Hiberno-English and Irish use the same sounds. I do understand and agree that learner should choose one of the Gaeltacht phonemic systems as opposed to the Lárchanúint, and, I personally aim to speak with the Donegal blas I learned growing up.
But there is so much more to dialect than phonology.
That’s why I asked the question. Why don’t learners want to draw from multiple dialects and the Caighdéan if they want to be autonomous speakers and communicate with all speakers of Irish?
I asked out of curiosity and really didn’t want it to get so out of hand. I’m happy to for me to potter along and do my thing and let others do theirs too.
Tá sé ag éirí déanach anois. Oíche mhaith.
Er, and if either of those speakers is not a native speaker of the language being spoken? I agree that saying that someone has dirt in their mouth is uncalled for. But you’re not seriously claiming that the Irish/French/Italian etc of a LEARNER of either of those languages should be regarded as being equivalent to that of a NATIVE speaker?
In this example, we were talking about two people who learned Irish at school. One who learned Ulster pronunciation and one who learned Munster pronunciation. Neither is a native speaker.
It’s that not important anyhow, I just used it as an illustration of a point.
Ach go raibh maith agat fá choinne do chinéaltas, a Dhubhthach!September 16, 2013 at 5:09 pm in reply to: An bhfuil difríocht idir “ag caint” agus “ag labhairt”? #44539
Mar a chéile iad. Féach:
Tchíom! Go raibh míle maith agaibh uilig!
I looked up the article on language death and language management by David Crystal he mentioned which also mentions the idea of being bi- or mutlidialectal.
From Revitalizing the Celtic Languages
So if I am monolingual in English, it will pay me- literally and metaphorically- to be bidialectal, or mutlidialectal. The new school curriculum for English in England and Wales emphasises this point, drawing attention to the need for all students to become confident users of standard English, but not at the expense of demeaning any regional dialect or other language they may have. This, of course, is the main change in attitude which distinguishes the kind of mother-tongue language teaching we used to have in schools from that which is present now. And, if I have the opportunity, it will pay me to be bilingual, or mutilingual – and even more to be multidialectal in my multilingualism.
He didn’t specify, I think.
What does “pseudo-linguistics” mean?
According to wikipedia, “Psuedo-science” is a claim, belief, or practice which is presented as scientific, but does not adhere to a valid scientific method, lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, cannot be reliably tested, or otherwise lacks scientific status.
Replace science with linguistics and I’d say that’s what he means by it.
GRMA a Fhéabar!
Really interesting article. I’ll check out the rest of his blog too.
If you don’t bother with native pronunciation, you won’t really get the whole broad/slender dichotomy in Irish or might have only an incomplete understanding of it.
To be fair, I’m not talking about ignoring native pronunciation, I’m talking about why people are focusing on one native dialect to the exclusion of the others. I know that during the learning process, it’s probably more effective to work on one at a time but I mean after you’ve developed a blas.
I listen intensely to friends from Conamara and Gaoth Dobhair and take a keen interest in how they speak. But I’m not aiming to learn Conamara or Gaoth Dobhair Irish. I was born in Cork and so for me Munster was the natural choice.
How do you find communication with speakers of other dialects in that case? Also, if you don’t mind my asking, do you ever find elements of other dialects creeping into your Irish and, if so, do you consciously try to get rid of them?
I would assume a native English speaker would find it a bit strange to hear a foreigner speak a mixture of Hiberno-English, RP, Texas and New Zealand English. I may be wrong, but I would expect that to sound odd.
I speak a mongrel of accent and dialect in English (one of the reasons I’m curious about the equivalent in Irish). My family are from all over so my accent and the dialect words I use drift between Lowland Scots, Donegal and Dublin.
And when I teach English (as a foreign language), I generally teach in an American accent for simplicity’s sake and it’s starting to creep into my everyday speech. I usually get no more than a “where are you from, then?” if anything.
I always thought mixed accents/dialects are normal enough in English. The number of people I know from Anagaire and other villages in the Gaeltacht who are fluent speakers but have a TV-induced American twang when they switch to English.
Funnily enough, one of my friends is Swedish and speaks English with a hybrid Australian/Galwegian accent.