Jonas

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  • in reply to: How dialectal should a good course in Irish be? #44504
    Jonas
    Participant

    Wow, that sounds amazing Jonas! The cultural facts sounds interesting, what kind of things are you
    thinking of including in that section?

    Thanks, nice to hear that. The cultural facts will be very short. On the top of my head, explaining Irish names (why is it Muiris Ó Súilleabháin but Eibhlin Shúilleabháin), of course some facts about the Blasket authors (would be more than one fact, several of them spread out across chapters, not a long essay in one place), explaining the naomhóg… these kind of things. 🙂

    Actually Jonas, what approach are taking to the case system?
    Speakers in Corca Dhuibhne today don’t typically make use of the
    genitive if an adjective follows the noun, or if the noun is followed by
    a relative clause. For example, I heard:
    Tigh an bhean mhacánta The mild-mannered woman’s house.
    The genitive plural as a complicated usage as far as I can tell, it still continues
    to be used in fixed phrases where it has an adjectival meaning and with personal
    numerals. However outside of this:
    (a) Weak plurals are becoming rarer and hence less words could theoretically
    possess a genitive plural.
    (b) For masculine words which have a weak plural, the nominative plural is more
    commonly used these days, e.g. Meaning you have the same basic form in both the
    genitive singular and plural.
    Ramhaí na mbáid The oars of the boats.
    Fear an bháid The boatman.
    (c) Only feminine weak plurals seem to still regular have a genitive plural:
    ag briseadh na bhfuinneog Breaking the windows.

    Will all these sort of features be explained? Outside of Learning Irish, a lot of learning
    texts have slightly archaic grammar.

    That’s an easy question, already wrote that part 🙂

    I’m pretty much going with what you say. I first introduce the genitive and explain it, then show how it is formed (actually, this is split between several chapters. When the genitive is first introduced, I just explain how to form it for nouns in category one). After that I explain the main usages (some minor ones are saved until later chapters).

    I first show the genitive in usage, but then also point out the cases in which it is not used in current speech – such as when followed by an adjective. I already said the main principle is that nothing in the book should be alien to Corca Dhuibhne. I should add a second principle: nothing in Corca Dhuibhne should be alien to the learner. So all of those aspects you list, which are part of current speech, are explained.

    As for the dative, I do talk about it but towards the very end, and explain that it is rarely used these days. I do explain how it is formed and would be used, but as I said, also explaining that it’s usage is very limited outside set phrases and a quite small number of words. I also explain that some dative forms are quite often used as nominative forms these days (muic, cois…).

    in reply to: How dialectal should a good course in Irish be? #44501
    Jonas
    Participant

    Just in case anyone is interested, this is a (very preliminary) overview of how the book is (or rather will be) in terms of content, divided into 55 chapters.

    Grammar explanations and examples, 165 pages. Most of this is already done. Around 80-90% of the grammar finished. I have some examples for all grammar aspects, but will add more. The remaining examples depend on which words I’ll use, which in turn depends on the words in the dialogues. So every time I write about a grammar aspect, I write down 2-3 examples using a rather limited basic vocabulary, then I’ll add 2-3 more for each aspect with specific words. I’d say the grammar section is about as detailed as in Learning Irish, though with a bit more examples. Definitely much more detailed than Colloquial Irish, and perhaps a tad more detailed than Learning Irish though it’s close.

    Vocabulary list for each chapter, 55 pages. Not much done here. This will of course depend on the dialogues. My way of thinking is this: far too often courses introduce words for the chapter, then don’t use some of the words after that. I want to avoid that, you learn words by using them. So the first time a word is introduced, it will be in the vocabulary list, in some grammar example and in some exercises for that chapter. But then I’ll make sure that each word (except perhaps those in the very last chapters) return regularly, so that if you learn a new word in chapter 16 and use it then, it might turn up in an example in chapter 21 and in chapter 40, in a dialogue in chapter 28 and chapter 50, in exercises in chapter 19 and in chapter 35. The idea being that every word should turn up in at least five chapters except the chapter in which it is introduced. Common words more often, of course. This is the reason not all examples for the grammar aspects, and very few exercises, are still written. With the grammar done, and some examples already there, it’s no problem writing these. The challenge is to make sure all words are repeated often enough.

    Irish-English and English-Irish glossary at the back, 100 pages (2*50) The easiest part. Copy the vocabulary lists for each chapter into excel, sort by alphabetical order, read through to make sure words that belong together go together.

    Dialogues, 55 pages. The real challenge, apart from (or rather strongly linked to) picking the words. First I have to organize the grammar sections into order and into chapters (mostly done) to know what grammar I can use for each dialogue.

    Appendix per chapter with alternative forms, 30 pages. This is almost done already, I’ve done it at the same time as I’ve written the main grammar in the chapters.

    Exercises, 55 pages. Hardly any done. Will depend on the words, as explained above.

    Key to exercises, 20 pages. Goes with the above, of course 🙂

    Cultural facts, 15 pages. I might include these, 2-3 short interesting facts for each chapter. Just for fun. 🙂

    General introduction, 5 pages. Mostly done.

    Spelling and pronunciation, 20 pages. 5-6 general pages after the introduction, 15 pages detailed guide at the end. The detailed guide is done.

    So that’s it. The idea is to have a grammar as detailed as Learning Irish (and I think I have – or will have, very close already), a vocabulary of about 2000-2200 words (about 25% more than LI), dialogues (not found in LI), and more examples than LI. The cultural facts is of course something not found in LI either. Just to be clear, I haven’t looked that closely on LI as this is about Corca Dhuibhne Irish, I just refer to it here as it’s the most extensive course I’ve read in Irish.

    in reply to: How dialectal should a good course in Irish be? #44492
    Jonas
    Participant

    i would also suggest including sample sentence and phrases ( that you could learn) which would show the various contexts in which a certain word can be used.

    Learning a word and its direct English translation is easy, the hard part is knowing when and how to employ it ( or not)

    Absolutely, lots of example sentences to show both grammar, words and expressions in context!

    in reply to: How dialectal should a good course in Irish be? #44491
    Jonas
    Participant

    I was just wondering were you planning a purely book form or an online course?

    Good question. Right now I haven’t thought about it. Step 1 is finishing it, only then will I think about possible publishing strategies. As it’s not for the money, any method that would make the book accessible and interesting for as many potential learners as possible is good.

    in reply to: How dialectal should a good course in Irish be? #44490
    Jonas
    Participant

    One more point; whatever people actually use locally is authentic. I’m not sure why synthetic forms of the verb are more or less authentic than analytic ones.

    The emphasis, I think, should be on the local dialect and the CO forms should either be kept to an absolute minimum or not included at all. There are no end of books out there describing the verb, etc in the CO.

    I agree, that’s the principle I try to follow. I must admit to one case of hesitation:

    I’ll mention both forms of questions in the past, Ar chuiris? and An gcuiris?. I admit to having a preference for the first one, though I would say the second one is at least as common. So both are mentioned, but in the examples and dialogues, I tend to go for the “ar”-forms right now. Still haven’t taken any final decision on that. Of course, Ar chuiris? is not wrong and would not strike CD-speakers as odd.

    in reply to: How dialectal should a good course in Irish be? #44488
    Jonas
    Participant

    I wouldn’t worry too much about using variant spellings. They shouldn’t be a problem at all, as long as they are to be found in Ó Dónaill’s dictionary (or at least in Dinneen’s). Of course, whenever you use a variant, it’s okay to mention the “standard” spelling, too.

    True. If the variant is mentioned in a standard dictionary or commonly accepted in texts written in the dialect, there’s nothing to worry about. However, I’ve never seen “cineál” spelt as “cionál” or “arán” as “rán”, although that’s how they are pronounced in Connemara. Neither would I recommend spelling “luí” as “loighe” or “níos laige” as “níos loige”, which is what O’Siadhail does in his otherwise excellent book. On the other hand, I would use dialect spellings for Munster words like “neomat” and “fanúint” which differ too much from Standard Irish. So, my theory isn’t quite consistent, I’m afraid. 🙂

    It’s a difficult balancing act. For instance, I use “ag” in spelling but [eg´i] in IPA, just like “ar” in spelling but [er´] in IPA, of course. And needless to say, I use “tigh” instead of “teach”, “anso” instead of “anseo” etc. On the other hand, I do write “tiocfaidh” even though “tucfaidh” would be in line with what is said. So not very consistent. As far as possible, I try to follow what writes from CD have used in their books (the non-standardised forms). In the IPA, I always give the actual pronunciation, so “tiocfaidh” is [tukig´].

    in reply to: How dialectal should a good course in Irish be? #44487
    Jonas
    Participant

    1) [o:] is more common overall in Munster (including both “living” and extinct subdialects) apart from some words like “nó” where [u:] seems to be have been used everywhere in Munster (seems . . . but I could be wrong). Do you have Ár Leithéidí Aris by Pádraig Ua Maoileoin? He gives a brief account of An Chanúint Mhór vs An Chanúint Bheag. Haven’t seen any other such account in any other text. I can post some details here if you’re interested.

    2) Mmm. Maybe as a footnote but if the course is on CD Irish I think you should stick with that throughout. I think Ó Siadhail’s Modern Irish also makes some mention of this. Have you read Seán Ua Súillleabháin in Stair na Gaeilge? My understanding is that “ba mhúinteoir é” is not used anywhere in Munster (including recently extinct subdialects, Béarra, Cairbre, etc). I could be wrong, though.

    3) I say it again, Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne is a fantastic book, it really is, but it doesn’t take in “na hairde ó thuaidh”. And here’s a really dissident opinion: what about the Leitriúch? Yes, I know, Irish is almost as dead as a doorknob there today but that’s not the point; Wagner was there in the 1950s and collected material and that should be analysed and taken into account. Anyway, all of that is for another day’s discussion and your book is aimed at someone today who goes there and wants to learn the local Irish. So, “ab ea é” is probably ok. Why not email R na G in Baile na nGall and ask them if “ab ea é” or “dob/abh ea é etc” is more common in Baile na nGall etc? Remember, we’re both learners so “gut feelings” are ok but no harm getting a bit of evidence behind them. 🙂

    4) Yes, “meach”. As you know, this came from the genitive plural “crónán etc na mbeach” > “mbeach” > “meach”. Other widespread examples in West Munster are: méile (béile) and “mb’fhéidir”: Mb’fhéidir go bhfuil, mb’fhéidir ná fuil, etc.

    So, check out Diarmuid’s word list in An Teanga Bheo.

    1. Yes, [o:] is more common. Only problem is that since I speak a “ú-dialect”, I’m not sure when [o:] is used, not sure about the exceptions (like nó or mór) where there’s no [o:]. I have a few books by Pádraig Ua Maoileoin but not Ár Leithéidí Aris?

    2. I think you’re right. I don’t recall ever hearing “ba mhúinteoir é” in CD.

    3. Definitely, and if I ever decide to try to have the book published, I would definitely want to have it read by at least two native speakers from CD to make sure.

    in reply to: How dialectal should a good course in Irish be? #44486
    Jonas
    Participant

    I’ve got a few small suggestions:

    1. I think it’s fine to go with the [u:] sound as long as you mention the fact that [o:] is widely used and is quite correct. I personally think that authenticity is more important than how widespread something happens to be. So, teaching the actual dialect of Dún Chaoin and Dún Urlann would be brilliant!

    2. I think you should definitely use bead, beir, beam, etc. because synthetic verbs like these are in use and are the authentic forms of the actual dialect. Stuff like “beidh mé” should be mentioned, of course, but the main focus should be on traditional usage.

    3. The same goes for the copula – use the form that is most authentic while being sure to mention the other forms that learners will run across.

    4. Go ahead and use An múinteoir is é é while also mentioning Is é an múinteoir é.

    1. I’m leaning in that direction. I have to proof-read when I’m finished, because sometimes I’ve thought to use the one, sometimes the other, so my IPA is a mess between [o:] and [u:] right now.

    2. Here I’m leaning in the opposite direction. Beidh mé is much more common in Corca Dhuibhne than bead, and I think I’ll go with the main current usage, while mentioning other forms.

    3 and 4. Definitely 🙂

    Add illustrations. Even the simple line drawings in Buntús Cainte made the book much more readable and interesting.

    Don’t scrimp on exercises and examples. There should be plenty of examples to look at and lots of exercises to work on.

    Interesting, cause I’m the opposite. I usually find drawings frustrating and a waste of space. I might enjoy the occasional picture, but not drawings. So I’m afraid drawings are out – particularly given how bad I am at drawing :p


    Dialogs are nice and give the learner a good sense of what an actual conversation would sound like.

    Sound files by fluent native speakers are super-important. The more sound files the better!

    A good thorough glossary in the back of the book is always nice.

    I very much agree. While it’s a pain writing dialogues, I think it’s important if the course is to be good. And sound files by native speakers from Corca Dhuibhne would be a must, at least of all the vocabulary lists and the dialogues. And definitely a two-way glossary at the end with every word in the course.

    in reply to: Dia dhaoibh #44454
    Jonas
    Participant

    Dè ‘n t-àbhar atà tù a theaghasc? Bèarla? Sualainnis?
    An bhfanòchaidh tù san àit sin go “deo” nò an gcrìochnòchaidh do chonradh oibre i gcionn cupla bliain?

    Is é iompar tomhaltóirí an t-ábhar atháim á mhúineadh, ach fócas ar úsáid na dteangacha. Féach [url=http://www.emeraldinsight.com/journals.htm?articleid=17084466]anso[/url] agus [url=http://jsr.sagepub.com/content/15/4/430.abstract]anso[/url], mar shampla, má tá suim agat ann 🙂

    Tá CDI agam anso ach níl a fhios agam.. cífimíd é sin. Táim ag déanamh taighde ar teangacha i gcomhthéacsana ilteangeolaíoch agus caithfead a rá ní hí seo an chathair is fearr chun an ábhair sin. Tá sí in aice le Euskadi, ach pé scéal é…

    in reply to: How dialectal should a good course in Irish be? #44453
    Jonas
    Participant

    Thanks for all the interesting and valuable comments. I’m currently in a hectic period with three weeks of intensive travelling and working, but I’ll be back soon to comment more in detail on the many excellent suggestions you’ve made!

    in reply to: How dialectal should a good course in Irish be? #44415
    Jonas
    Participant

    By the way, does your method use dialogues or is it a “reader” like “Learning lrish”?

    Excellent question. I’d like to have dialogues, perhaps with the occasional text. Have to admit that is by far the hardest part. I teach university courses and write academic articles for a living, so writing about grammatical features and explaining them is not that hard. Writing dialogues is something completely different – particularly as the dialogues should not really contain grammar that hasn’t yet been introduced. So the final dialogues are easy, anything beyond chapter 20 is no real worry in that regard (though still not that easy to write dialogues in any language). The real problem are the first chapters. In general, I introduce two grammatical concepts in each chapter. The first chapters introduces the definite article (only for singular masculine nouns, I talk about gender in the second chapter) the lack of an indefinite article, and . If anyone knows how to write an entertaining dialogue using sentences like Táim anso, Tá an fear ansan, Tá bia ann… Well, I’m all ears 😉

    in reply to: How dialectal should a good course in Irish be? #44414
    Jonas
    Participant

    1. I of course go for the Corca Dhuibhne pronunciation. But should I go fo [u:] or [o:] when ó stands next to a nasal? Both are authentic in the Corca Dhuibhne Gaeltacht. I use [u:] myself cause that’s what people in Dún Chaoin and western Dún Urlann do and it’s from them I learned my Irish. Then again, more people in Corca Dhuibhne use [o:] and that is easier for learners as it reflects the spelling.

    2. As for the verbs, I of course use the Munster forms in the present and the past (táim, bhíos, bhíodar) but I hesitate in the future. The older forms (bead, beir, beam) are more authentic, but beidh mé, beidh tú, beimíd are the more common forms in Corca Dhuibhne these days. I will introduce both options, of course, since anyone who come into contact with Corca Dhuibhne Irish will encounter both options and need to know about them, but which one to focus more on and use in dialogues?

    3. The copula is a bith of a minefield because of all the variation in Corca Dhuibhne.
    He is a teacher. Well, easy enough. Múinteoir is ea é, alternatively Is múinteoir é. Any learner needs to know both. But then…
    He was a teacher. In good Corca Dhuibhne Irish, this could be Múinteoir ab ea é, or Múinteoir abh ea é , or Múinteoir dob ea é and the more standard Ba mhúinteoir é should probably also be known. Would not this just confuse even the dedicated learner?

    4. Staying with the copula, now saying He is the teacher. One could say Is é an múinteoir é. It’s standard, it’s good Irish in Corca Dhuibhne and it’s used in the rest of Munster. Then again, a good speaker in Corca Dhuibhne would be more likely to say An múinteoir is é é.

    !

    1) I’m sure you’re aware of An Chanúint Bheag vs An Chanúint Mhór. Why not choose one or the other [o:] or [u:] but explain that the other is also used?

    2) The analytic ones if they are the more common with a note on the synthentic forms. Do they even say “Ba mhúinteoir é” in CD? I’ve never heard that but who knows?

    3) I’d say “múinteoir ab ea é” would be grand. Is “dob ea” and “abh ea” more common in Dún Chaoin?

    4) An múinteoir is é é

    Might be no harm to focus on the more widespread features but also provide notes showing the alternatives.

    I’m familiar with the dialect and Ó Sé. Ó Sé is great but the book isn’t about Corca Dhuibhne Irish. It’s about the Irish of the parish of Dún Chaoin. The sections on the phonology at the start could be developed but that may need a separate book to do it justice. Overall, very good indeed, but it’s hard to cover an entire living dialect in one book and I’m always hearing things on the radio which contradict received wisdom. I heard pionta with an /i/ à la Conamara from Jim Begley, Seosaimhín’s uncle on Cartlann Bhóthar na Léinsí a few weeks ago.

    Is LASID any good, I wonder? I hear Croí Cainnte Chiarraighe is being worked on by someone in Limerick.

    1. Good point, and I’m leaning towards using [o:] even though I don’t use it in my own speech – but to mention in the section on pronunciation that some speakers use [u:]

    2. No, I haven’t heard it either. That’s why I added it to the discussion, as an example of a form that is common elsewhere but not in CD. I would never use it as the main form, but I wondered whether to mention it. Lughaid’s idea about an appendix is good, I would stick common forms that people are likely to encounter, but which aren’t used in CD, in the appendix.

    3. I really cannot say much about the frequency, but my gut feeling is that “múinteoir ab ea é” is the most common. Again, I might give only that one, and use the appendix both for variety inside CD as well as some of the most common non-CD forms.

    Very much liked your idea about a word list that lists words that differ. “Meach” immediately comes to mind, as I once had a long discussion about bees with a speaker from Cúil Aodha. 🙂

    in reply to: How dialectal should a good course in Irish be? #44403
    Jonas
    Participant

    Hi

    I understand the problems you meet 🙂
    This is the choice I would make : choose the most common forms that are used in the dialect now (apart from influence of school Irish — we should try to keep alive what is typical of the dialect), and if 2 forms are equally common, teach both, or teach the one that is the closest to the standard.
    Ie: choose what learners are most likely to hear from native speakers when they go to Corca Dhuibhne 🙂
    You can make an appendix at the end of the book, to show what are the variants that exist, but more rarely used…

    Btw, I’d love to make a Gaoth Dobhair version of your learning book when it’s finished, if you’re ok 🙂

    Good advice, I like the appendix part. It would allow me to keep focused in the chapters, but still include varieties that people would encounter.

    You’d be more than welcome to make a Gaoth Dobhair version of it 🙂 Perhaps I could send you a few chapters in 2-3 weeks and you could say what you think of it. I don’t really work chapter by chapter, but rather topic by topic so right now I don’t have any chapter that is completely finished but lots of chapters that are anywhere between half-finished to almost finished.

    in reply to: “Stair na Gaeilge” #44385
    Jonas
    Participant

    Tá an leabhar san agam agus is iontach féin é! Má tá suim agat sa teanga agus sna canúintí, molaim dhuit é a cheannach, cinnte!

    in reply to: Gaeilge #44372
    Jonas
    Participant

    You’re doing it again! Look, if what I’m saying is complete and utter cobblers, then please tell me what part of it is complete and utter cobblers!

    I cannot speak for Daithi, but personally I think most of the facts you say are absolutely correct. The “problem”, if that’s the word, is that you seem to have an argument with people who prefer their hobby Irish and anglophone pronunciation. I support you in that argument – but I guess everybody here supports you, right? So if we all agree that Irish as spoken by Gaeltacht speakers is the best form of Irish, then perhaps we can move past that? Unless someone disagrees, of course.

    You wrote earlier that this is an American site. It is. Then again, look at some of the most active members. Daithi currently lives in the Gaeltacht. Both Lughaidh and I live in France, but both of us have lived for longer periods in the Gaeltacht. If we look at the posts written in the last weeks, at least half of them are from people who live or have lived in the Gaeltacht, and it would appear that all of them are from people who much prefer Gaeltacht Irish over Anglo-Irish. So nothing you say is complete and utter cobblers, but you seem to have an argument with Dublin people preferring their own Irish and with outsiders with no knowledge of the Gaeltacht. Fair enough, but that is not the people you’re discussing with here.

    My argument is that you cannot revive a language if people can’t speak it. If everyone on here supports me, they’ve got a funny way of showing it! I am not talking about problems within the Gaeltacht. That would require a whole new thread. The OP referred to the Gaelscoileanna and the revival. The Gaelscoileanna have nothing to do with the Gaeltacht. I stand by my earlier remarks that the language stands or falls in the Gaeltacht.

    I know that not everyone on here is American and I stated as much earlier on. However, there are people posting here or just following the thread who may not know all that much about either the Gaeltacht or the “revival” in the Galltacht. I took the example of Dublin but the same holds true for any part of the Galltacht. I mentioned my own home place for example but it’s more acute in Dublin.

    I’ve no beef with individuals doing their best and who have the humility to admit it. Anyone will tell you that my door is always open when people need help. What I am saying is that a revival on a large scale cannot be built if the majority of learners can’t speak the language well. I’m also referring to the classism and anti-rural bias of certain circles of urban learners in Ireland who think Irish is their ideological plaything and use some very bizarre logic to dismiss native-spoken Irish. Some of the comments I’ve heard made about Gaeltacht people were quite unnecessary. Dáithí himself even mentioned them in an earlier post; he mentioned people who didn’t want to sound like “boggers”.That attitude is not uncommon among learners in Ireland (in Ireland. I’m not speaking about America or anywhere else).

    There is a complete disconnect between the Galltacht learners and Gaeltacht Irish. A guy I know went to see a play in Irish and then afterwards in the pub started bitching about how he couldn’t understand it because it was in Conamara Irish with Conamara actors. He said that the play shouldn’t even have been staged if “no one” could understand it. And he’s by no means alone in those views. Imagine a student of French going to a play in French with French actors and then complaining afterwards because he couldn’t understand any of it! The same guy also hates sean-nós singing. “I can’t understand any of it! How is that helping the language!”

    Another attitude I’ve heard a few times is this: “Ah, sure, the Gaeltacht will be dead soon anyway! Big deal!” and this golden nugget: “I’ve never heard of that word! You must be making all of this up!!!” Indeed, someone did once write a letter into Foinse years ago complaining about one of the regular columnists, a Gaeltacht man: “It’s not in my dictionary! He must be making it up!”

    Another genius came out with this pearl of wisdom: “Gaeltacht speakers don’t speak An Caighdeán Oifigiúil, the proper Irish! They lack terms for modern technology!!!”

    I hear and read that sort of nonsense on a regular basis.

    I couldn’t agree more.

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