Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
You’re doing it again! Look, if what I’m saying is complete and utter cobblers, then please tell me what part of it is complete and utter cobblers!
I cannot speak for Daithi, but personally I think most of the facts you say are absolutely correct. The “problem”, if that’s the word, is that you seem to have an argument with people who prefer their hobby Irish and anglophone pronunciation. I support you in that argument – but I guess everybody here supports you, right? So if we all agree that Irish as spoken by Gaeltacht speakers is the best form of Irish, then perhaps we can move past that? Unless someone disagrees, of course.
You wrote earlier that this is an American site. It is. Then again, look at some of the most active members. Daithi currently lives in the Gaeltacht. Both Lughaidh and I live in France, but both of us have lived for longer periods in the Gaeltacht. If we look at the posts written in the last weeks, at least half of them are from people who live or have lived in the Gaeltacht, and it would appear that all of them are from people who much prefer Gaeltacht Irish over Anglo-Irish. So nothing you say is complete and utter cobblers, but you seem to have an argument with Dublin people preferring their own Irish and with outsiders with no knowledge of the Gaeltacht. Fair enough, but that is not the people you’re discussing with here.
Je demande comme j’ai pensé à faire un tel guide à la prononciation de Corca Dhuibhne (ou Dún Urlann, pour être précis), et je suppose que deux guides pareils pourraient être utiles pour tous ceux qui veulent apprendre l’irlandais 🙂
Cheannóinn é, gan amhras!
🙂 Bheinn sásta é a chur ar-líne, áfach.
Carmanach: Very interesting and honest analysis. I have only spent two summer stints in what is called the Gaeltacht and I was quite surprised at how reluctant, unable, or indifferent most people were to even speak Irish in those places other than the families with whom I stayed. I was surprised because those areas are the supposed areas where the Irish Language is cherished and protected.
Could I ask where you were? I find it quite surprising, because I don’t remember that ever happening to me in what I would call a real Gaeltacht. Then again, it’s of course what would be expected in “Gaeltacht”-places like Bearna, Baile Bhuirne or Gaoth Saile where almost nobody speaks the language at home. Though I wouldn’t really consider those places Gaeltachtaí.
As you point out, that doesn’t appear to be a critical mass of any kind. It doesn’t change the fact that I’m having fun with the language and value it as part of my cultural journey, and hope to improve upon it as time goes by. But it does adjust my thinking as to any real use of it in a community setting. I still couldn’t read the thread so if someone could email me the PDF document I would enjoy having the opportunity to read it.I guess it goes without saying that the motives for learning Irish are always different than the motives for many other languages. Apart from my native Swedish, the only three languages in which I feel completely fluent (meaning I can express what I want in all situations) are English, French and Italian. Those are languages I learned because I needed them, having lived extended periods in areas where those three languages are spoken, and where most people don’t speak any other language. It took me less than six month to become better in Italian than I had become in Irish during ten years – because I was really surrounded by the language in every sense.
So no, Irish doesn’t have that critical mass, Irish monoglots are extremely rare (though I’ve met the odd ones) and even if you gathered all daily Irish speakers together, they would still be fewer in number than daily French speakers just in Montauban or daily Italian speakers just in Crotone – and then Montauban and Crotone are usually seen as sleepy backwaters in France and in Italy respectively. Even if the unthinkable happened and tomorrow every person in Ireland woke up as a fluent Irish speaker dedicated to living their lives in Ireland, it would still be fare less than just the population of Greater Paris or Greater Milan. Ireland is a small country, where only a small percentage are daily Irish speakers. That is the reality of it, and our motives to learn Irish are different than usual motives to learn languages.
But those motives need not be bad. People of Irish descent may wish to speak the language of their ancestors. People interested in mythology might be interested in reading the largest collection of European mythology in its original language. People who learn about the extraordinary books from the Blasket Islands (extraordinary in the sense of witnesses to way of life long gone in Europe) may want to be able to read them. People might want to read Irish poetry in Irish, just as I wanted to read Dante in Italian. Or people might want to spend some time in the areas where Irish actually still is spoken. Few though they may be, they still exist.
“No, and I never said anything even remotely similar.”
But did you not suggest that Lithuanian was at one stage on the brink of dying out in Lithuania and were you not comparing that to the situation of Irish? I’ve asked you at least twice for details on how Lithuanian came back from that brink. I mentioned the figure to try and see was Lithuanian ever in such a similar dire situation as Irish is today.
My bad, I must have expressed myself badly. The point I was trying to make was a general one, that it is hard to predict the future of languages. It’s of course also hard to predict the future of different areas, as for instance in the fact that Uíbh Rathach was more solidly Irish-speaking than Corca Dhuibhne when censuses began.
It never even crossed my mind that Irish from today’s situation would become the only language of Ireland, so if I didn’t specifically point that out, it’s because I think it self-evident.
Do chuala neoimintí beaga ó shin go bhfuil Maidhc Dainín Ó Sé, file, ceoltóir, fear Gaeltachta, fachta bás. Suaimhneas síoraí go raibh aige.
Is mór an trua é sin, beannacht Dé dhílis lena hanam agus le hanamacha na marbh.
Ah bon ? Moi aussi, j’ai commencé il y a déjà longtemps, mais uniquement pour la prononciation de Corca Dhuibhne. Si tu as toujours ton document en format word ou pdf, cela serait très intéressant de lire, je pourrais peut-être même ajouter un peu si tu veux 🙂
Can I make a suggestion?
Can people (not everyone, some people on here) please stop attacking me personally and just focus on the points I raise. You may not like what I say, but that does not mean that it is false.
Play the ball, people, not the man.
Nobody is attacking you, not anymore than you are attacking others. You have spent a great deal of time highlighting the problem, and to take it upon yourself to tell everyone who believe in a revival that they are wrong. (I would agree that anyone thinking Ireland will ever again be an Irish-speaking country is wrong, I’m not challenging that point)
So there, we are all aware of that problem. Now, do you have a solution to propose or not? If not, I ask again: what’s the purpose of your posts in this thread? You said in your first post you think Irish is doomed. I have no problem with that opinion, although I don’t necessarily share it. But if that is your point, why repeat it twenty times? Surely you can understand that others perceive that you think them stupid if the impression you give is that you don’t think we’ve understood that point.
With respect, Jonas, have you ever read this document or studied the conclusions it makes?
Yes, I have. And with due respect in return, I believe to know a thing or two about the Gaeltachtaí and about sociolinguistics in general, so could I suggest that you drop the attitude of being the expert. I am not denying your considerable knowledge for a minute. Far from it, I think it is extremely valuable. It just might be a good idea to stop writing as if everybody else knows less than you. That might not be your intention, but it appears that’s the impression most people get.
Jonas: Was Lithuanian ever reduced to 15,000 daily speakers?No, and I never said anything even remotely similar.
“As to the Irish language, toleration and patronage have come too late. It cannot be saved alive by any human power. As a spoken language, it can hardly survive the present generation. The fathers and mothers will retain it until their death, but by the children it will be neglected and forgotten. The time for educating them in the native language has gone by forever. It is not the language of business, of modern civilisation, and will not enable a man to get on in the world. Its doom is inevitable.”
That quote is more that 160 years old. It shows that the inevitable death of Irish within a generation or two has been predicted for a very long time already. Given that nobody can predict the future, I don’t really see the point. If anyone had predicted in 1985 that the Baltic states would soon be both independent and in the NATO, he would have been though mad, to take a non-linguistic example.
http://www.mayococo.ie/lgdocuments/irish_docs/Staidéar-Cuimsitheach-Teangeolaíoch.pdf
I can’t open the link you put up for us.
Neither can I, but I read the report before. I found it very encouraging, it showed stronger Irish use than I had expected in a lot of Gaeltacht areas. This a link to the original study
http://www.ahg.gov.ie/ie/Straiteis20BliaindonGhaeilge2010-2030/Foilseachain/Staidéar Cuimsitheach Teangeolaíoch ar Úsáid na Gaeilge sa Ghaeltacht (achoimre).pdfMerci, c’est autant que possible la prononciation de Gaoth Dobhair, avec les r slender prononcés [j] entre voyelles et en fin de mot, etc…
Oui, c’est vraiment pour ça que je l’ai acheté – j’ai déjà des dictionnaires, mais un dictionnaire avec la prononciation authentique, c’est vraiment au top. T’as jamais pensé à faire un guide complet à la prononciation de Gaoth Dobhair, semblable au [url=http://www.akerbeltz.eu/pdfs/Guide_detailed_with_examples.zip]guide de Gàidhlig[/url] afin qu’on sache prononcer les mots qu’on lit ? Je demande comme j’ai pensé à faire un tel guide à la prononciation de Corca Dhuibhne (ou Dún Urlann, pour être précis), et je suppose que deux guides pareils pourraient être utiles pour tous ceux qui veulent apprendre l’irlandais 🙂
I have it, it’s awesome 🙂
Sympa, parce que je viens de l’acheter, il arrivera dans environ une semaine. Et j’ai acheté ton dictionnaire hier, surtout pour avoir la prononciation de Tír Chonaill, et je l’aime très bien, bail ó Dhia ort!
Carmanach, it’s a bit difficult to understand your purpose here. It more or less seems to be to insist that Irish will definitely die out, and to argue with anyone who dares to think Irish may survive. We all know the saying “Are you here with the solution or are you part of the problem”.
It’s a well-known sociolinguistic fact that repeating over and over that a language will die out (regardless of which language) reinforces language death. When speakers here that their language is doomed, they see little point in passing it on to their kids. I’m not saying one should run around spreading over-optimistic ideas either, of course, but unless one wishes to bring about the death of the Irish language, I can see no reason to constantly repeat that it is inevitable. Unless, of course, one has an alternative solution. So, Carmanach, you’ve repeatedly pointed out the problem. Now, do you have a solution?
(I’m not trying to put words in anyone’s mouth here, I’m just trying to understand the purpose.)
Absolutely agree. While The Irish of West Muskerry is great, it may be difficult to penetrate for someone with no linguistic background. It appears that Blas na Gàidhlig, from what I’ve seen in the available content, really does its utmost to be both accessible to everyone and at the same time taking great care to focus on correct and proper pronunciation. I’ll most likely buy it, it seems to be a very interesting book.
For those interested, I see that the publisher kindly provides loads of free material.
If you visit this [url=http://www.akerbeltz.eu/books.html]home page[/url] of Blas na Gàidhlig, you will find:
1. a 55-page pdf-file that lists how all letters and spelling combinations are pronounced in Gàidhlig, just like in The Irish of West Muskerry and other books in the series. This is already a great thing!
2. Fourteen pdf-files that contain pronunciation examples from the book.
3. A whole 553(!) mp3-files illustrating the pronunciation.
Needless to say, this is an absolute treasure to get for free. 🙂
“As to the Irish language, toleration and patronage have come too late. It cannot be saved alive by any human power. As a spoken language, it can hardly survive the present generation. The fathers and mothers will retain it until their death, but by the children it will be neglected and forgotten. The time for educating them in the native language has gone by forever. It is not the language of business, of modern civilisation, and will not enable a man to get on in the world. Its doom is inevitable.”
That quote is more that 160 years old. It shows that the inevitable death of Irish within a generation or two has been predicted for a very long time already. Given that nobody can predict the future, I don’t really see the point. If anyone had predicted in 1985 that the Baltic states would soon be both independent and in the NATO, he would have been though mad, to take a non-linguistic example.
Depends on the region. Btw, many older people have learnt French at school because their first language was Breton, Alsacian, Languedocien, Corsican etc. In certain areas (West Indies, Polynesia…), many young people don’t speak French as their first language, but this doesn’t happen in Metropolitan France anymore because now 99,9999% of the parents speak French to their children, not a regional language even when they know one.
That is a really strong tendency in France, I’ve noticed. Not just for minority languages, but for immigrants as well. I have several good friends whose parents are Italians, but none of them speak even a word of Italian. In my salsa class, there are quite a few girls whose parents are from Morocco, Algeria or other Arabic counties, but none of them speak Arabic. One of my colleague is a professor from Germany, and he also speaks only French with his kids.
This is quite a contrast to me. I have many friends from back home who live abroad, and all of them speak Swedish with their kids. Likewise, I know several foreigners in Finland with small kids, and all of them speak their respective native languages with the kids. I would think it’s natural to speak your own language with your kids, but France seems to be the big exception.
