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  • in reply to: Teanga in Ulster #46510

    In the speech of older native speakers, I think it’s like this:
    Nominative and dative singular : teangaidh
    Genitive singular: teangtha (pronounced as if “teanca”)
    Nominative and dative plural: teangthacha (pronounced as if “teancacha” : chahng-kah-huh)
    Genitive plural: teangthach (pronounced as if “teancach”: chahng-cahh)

    It might be different in the speech of younger speakers, quite often, declensions are simplified and may also be influenced by school/media Irish…


    I am from Louth and from what I have gathered, the dialect of Irish spoken here has historically been the Ulster dialect, so that is what I would preferably like to learn.

    true but there are differences between the different areas of Ulster and Louth Irish wasn’t identical to the Irish of Donegal — which is the only place in historical Ulster where Irish is still alive as a traditional language (elsewhere, people are learners).

    One thing that I have notcied is that the Irish I learned in school, in Louth, can sound quite different from how others pronounce it.
    For example:
    “Dia duit”, to me, has always been pronounced, dee-ah dit, or dee-ah ditch. But others I have spoken to and heard have pronounced it as dee-ah dewit. (Please excuse me for using basic pronounciation aids, I have no understanding of the International Phonetic Alphabet)

    In Ulster it would be said, roughly, “jee-uh ditch”.
    I’m not aware of any dialect that would have “dewit” (if I understand properly what prononciation you mean).

    Would I be better off starting from the ground up and ignoring my previous teachings?

    yes. School Irish, afaik, is never close to Ulster Irish, except maybe with some teachers in the Gaeltacht…

    Also, as an additional question, how likely even is it, that the dialect of Louth Irish was similar to that of the modern Donegal Ulster Dialect? Perhaps I should just learn the Connacht or Munster dialect.

    For sure, Louth was closer to Donegal Irish than to Connachta or Munster Irish. But it had peculiarities, I think there are books that describe what was Louth Irish like when it was still spoken…

    in reply to: Genitives of genitives? #46426

    As I’m sure you know, a *lot* of people on GA are not native speakers, even if many of them sort of.. pretend to be.

    Here I’m not talking about people who claim they are native speakers, but about people who *are* native speakers from the Gaeltacht, because they are kind of “famous” at least in the ” Irish cultural world” (I don’t know if this is proper English).
    And they aren’t people who answered in the thread, if you want to know.

    “Native speaker” itself is a pretty tricky designation. If you were raised early on with Irish but didn’t really speak it much from a teenager onward and it’s obvious that you’re quite rusty, are you still a native speaker?

    the people I refered to are people who live in the Gaeltacht and who use it everyday.

    But yes, I can usually count several mistakes in most posts in the group

    I’ve no problem with that, it’s normal and I’m sure I also make mistakes (sometimes I see some, myself, when I see my posts again a few days later), and on top of that, I know my Irish must be unnatural to native speakers. It’s understandable but I’m sure I often don’t say things in the way Gaeltacht speakers would say them.
    There are a few cases where I’m disturbed when I see mistakes:
    – on signs and official documents, learning books or videos and “reference material” in general
    – when a learner asks a question and someone who thinks he/she knows gives a wrong answer (it’s even worse when he gets 10 answers and when at least half of them are wrong – it makes Irish look even harder to learners, because they’ll find contradictions between what they’ve been told and what they find in books and won’t understand why)
    – when Gaeltacht native speakers make “basic mistakes” (that can’t be typos). It makes me sad because it means even the “best speakers” or those who should be the most reliable speakers make such mistakes. Very worrying for the future of the language…

    in reply to: Genitives of genitives? #46422

    Actually, when I see how native speakers write on Facebook (I can’t say about the way they speak, since I don’t live in Ireland), with obvious mistakes most of the time, I’m not surprised that they would drop the lenition in phrases like “doras an tseomra suí”, actually they often drop lenitions in cases that are way simpler and more basic than that.
    I’m afraid that the last generation that spoke Irish “without mistake” is the generation that got English from school only or even later, ie. people who are 90 years old or so (eg. John Ghráinne). The next generations are bilingual from birth and it’s easy to see that their grammar is much “looser” than that of the precedent generation.

    Normally I’m not a prescriptivist but when I see that so many grammar rules have become optional, I think it’s not a good sign. If only declensions were disappearing, it would be ok (it happened in the Brythonic languages more than 1000 years ago) to me, but it looks like most features of the languages are becoming “optional”, ie. are being forgotten… and loads of words and idioms too.

    in reply to: Genitives of genitives? #46419

    I got answers here. Actually it’s not clear at all, one would find everything and its opposite, even in books!

    (I hope this link works)

    in reply to: Synthetic Verbs #46415

    Actually the form “deirimid” with a short i at the end doesn’t exist in any living dialect, afaik.
    Munster has deirimíd, Connacht has deir muid (I guess) and Donegal deireann muid, deir muid, déarann muid etc.

    The -adar ending doesn’t exist in Ulster either, afaik, people say “d’úirt siad”.

    in reply to: Genitives of genitives? #46412

    Since I haven’t found the solution in grammar books, I’ve just guessed it was the same thing after genitive singular masculine nouns as after nominative singular feminine nouns since they behave in the same way in most points of view. But maybe I’m wrong.
    It’s a bit hard to find the answer in databases too because one can only search for specific words and not grammatical situations like “all masculine nouns in the genitive that are followed by another noun”.
    But it’s a pity that grammar books don’t deal with that subject, it’s not an exceptional case so books should explain !
    Maybe people like Lillis Ó Laoire would know, I’ll ask on Facebook.

    in reply to: Subjunctive Mood #46405

    There are two subjunctive tenses in Irish: present subjunctive and past subjunctive. The present subjunctive forms provided by are correct, the other ones make no sense at all. smile In fact, the past subjunctive forms are the same as those for past conditional

    maybe you meant “past habitual”; past conditional doesn’t exist in Irish.

    (except that the verb remains unlenited, e.g. ‘molainn’ vs ‘mholainn’),

    it remains unlenited because it’s preceded by verbal particles that eclipse 🙂

    so that’s maybe why doesn’t include them? In general, the subjunctive tenses aren’t used very frequently, especially in spoken Irish.

    they are used in prayers and wishes: go n-éirí leat! go raibh maith agat! go ndéana(idh) Dia trócaire! etc.
    Also in sentences like “fan go bhfeice mé”.
    But they are set phrases in general.

    The past sujunctive can be used instead of the conditional after dá, there’s no difference in meaning. But the past subjunctive is more literary and old fashioned.
    Also I always wondered why it’s called past subjunctive, it’s not past nor subjunctive. It should be called “conditional 2” 😀

    in reply to: Genitives of genitives? #46401

    4.19 Is de réir rialacha 4.14 15 a shéimhítear
    ainmneacha laethanta, míonna agus teangacha: Oíche Shamhna; maidin Mháirt; amhráin Ghearmáinise; ach Lá Samhna; tráthnóna Sathairn; leabhar Béarla.
    ainm briathartha ginideach a bhfuil cuspóir cinnte nó éiginnte faoi réir aige: bean chasta an tuirne; bean chardála olla; seachtain bhailithe na rátaí; fir bhuailte an arbhair; fir mhúchta tinte; ach lucht múchta tinte; lá buailte an arbhair
    an chéad ghinideach de phéire ginideach atá araon faoi réir ag focal a thagann roimh an bpéire: bean choimhdeachta na banríona; misneach phobal Latharna; triomú mhóin Eoin; costas bhainne an naíonáin. Ach teach pobail Latharna; cliabh móna Eoin; buidéal bainne an naíonáin. Sna trí shampla dheireanacha tá an tríú focal faoi réir ag an gcéad cheann agus ní ag an dara ceann.
    4.20 Séimhítear ainmfhocal atá ar lorg foirm stairiúil den chopail: ba dhuine mór é; ní leis ab fhaillí é; ar shagart é? nár chapall maith é? cheap sé gur ghadaí é; níor thaibhse é; níorbh fheirmeoir é; murar bhád é; fear dar shloinne Ó Néill.


    So far I’ve not found much about the case of NOUN + ARTICLE + NOUN in the G + NOUN in the G but afaik the rule is as it is after a feminine noun in the nominative case.
    Have to search more but I wonder if this has been described in detail somewhere, if it’s not in GGBC…

    in reply to: Genitives of genitives? #46400

    Are you quite sure about this, Lughaidh? Granted, if a definite noun was followed by an adjective (e.g. an seomra dorcha), the adjective would be lenited in the genitive (doras an tseomra dhorcha). But would the same happen if it was a noun?

    normally yes but there are exceptions.

    I can’t find any rule specifying that and if you do a Google search, you’ll get things like “ceird an mhúinteoira bunscoile” and “doras an tseomra folctha” (rather than “bhunscoile” or “fholctha”) or “craiceann na bó bainne”, which isn’t very conclusive …

    I trust more grammar books than Google. Remember, most of what is written (or spoken) in Irish on the internet isn’t very correct.
    “Craiceann na bó bainne” has nothing to do with what I said, since “bó” is a singular feminine noun in the genitive: those never lenite whatevr comes after them.

    as far as masculine singular is concerned, this is what Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí says:


    4.15 Séimhítear tuiseal ginideach ainmfhocail éiginnte nó ainm briathartha atá faoi réir ag ainmfhocal eile nuair is ainmfhocal baininscneach uatha (nach ginideach) an chéad ainmfhocal
    ar lorg focal a léiríonn cainníocht: cloch phrátaí; glac thairní; trí splaideog chéille
    nuair atá an ginideach ina ainm briathartha: cloch cheangail; léim sheachanta; bean chaointe
    nuair atá an ginideach ina ghinideach comhaisnéise i gcás ainmhí nó ruda: púróg chloiche; stail chapaill; cráin mhuice; ach óinseach mná, baintreach fir
    nuair atá an ginideach ina ainmfhocal ábhair: súil ghloine; tine mhóna; coinneal chéarach
    i ndiaidh beirt, dís: beirt bhuachaillí; dís bhan.
    4.16 Ainneoin a bhfuil ráite in 4.14, ní gnách séimhiú ar ghinideach ainmfhocail éiginnte nó ainm bhriathartha atá faoi réir ag ainmfhocal eile sna cásanna seo:
    ar d, s, t ar lorg d, l, n, s, t, ach i gcorrchás: bean siúil; cos deiridh; slat tiomána; tonn tuile; min seagail; beirt sagart ach maidin shamhraidh (sheaca); ná ar f tosaigh, mar gur féidir le séimhiú cuma éiginnte nó ait a chur ar an mbunfhocal sa chaint: deoir fola [fhola nó ola], ach an ghlóir fhlaithiúnais
    ar lorg ainm theibí nuair nach ginideach ainm bhriathartha nó ginideach comhaisnéise a bheadh i gceist: aois gadhair; airde fir; intleacht mná; acmhainn grinn; ach cúis gháire (ghearáin, mhagaidh), cabaireacht chainte
    ar lorg ainmfhocal a chiallaíonn cuid, easpa, iomarca: ailp feola; roinnt bagúin; easpa taithí; breis bainne; an iomarca moille; mo chuid cainte
    ar lorg focal a chiallaíonn ball de dhuine nó d’ainmhí nó d’éan nó páirt de rud: lámh duine; adharc bó; crúb coiligh; gualainn cnoic.
    Tá focail mar sin ann a ngabhann séimhiú leo mar nach ndearctar orthu mar bhaill bheatha níos mó ach mar ábhair itheacháin: saill mhuice; ceathrú chaoireola; leis chirce; fleasc bhradáin, nó go meafarach: baineadh fuil mhairt as (anrud fola).
    ar lorg ainm bhriathartha a bhfuil réamhfhocal roimhe: ag tógáil potaí; a iarraidh comhairle; ar chosaint cathracha; ach amháin i leaganacha seanbhunaithe mar ag fáil bháis (bhisigh)
    Tá eisceachtaí eile ón riail seo le fáil sa teanga thall agus abhus, go háirithe le frásaí atá an choitianta: ag cur choirce, ag baint mhóna, etc., ach arís ní athraíonn siad substaint na rialach.
    ar lorg ainmfhocail éiginnte atá ar aon fhoirm le hainm briathartha: cosaint cúise; fulaingt péine; tiomáint gluaisteáin
    ar lorg cnuasainm más san iolra atá an ginideach: saithe beach; scaoth cuileog; buíon fear; ach dís fhear; clann mhac; buíon cheoil (chosanta)
    más gníomhaí an ginideach: seitreach capaill; géimneach bó; coiscéim coiligh
    más ginideach pearsanta comhaisnéise an ginideach: óinseach mná baintreach fir; a Thiarna Breithimh
    má chuireann ginideach pearsanta in iúl cé leis nó cé lena aghaidh duine nó rud: clann feirmeora; bróg mná; culaith fir
    má tá an ginideach cáilithe: oíche gaoithe móire; scian coise adhairce; bean baile mhóir.
    Séimhiú agus Ainmfhocal Cinnte sa Ghinideach
    4.17 Séimhítear ainmfhocal cinnte a bhfuil feidhm ghinideach aige agus nach gníomhaí ná cuspóir é d’ainm briathartha atá ar a lorg
    foireann Dhoire; muintir Sheáin; Coláiste Cholmáin; Cuan Bhaile Átha Cliath; oibrithe Bhéal Feirste
    mac fhear an tí; obair bhean an tábhairne; díon shiopa an bhúistéara; Oíche Fhéile Eoin; asal Sheáin nó Mháire
    ar aghaidh dhoras an tséipéil; os comhair Sheáin; in aice Chill Airne; faoi choinne pháistí na Gaeltachta; fearacht mhuintir na hAlban; dála Chonradh na Gaeilge; timpeall chósta na hEorpa; trasna Bhá an Daingin
    ag cáineadh mhuintir Shligigh; ag moladh chlann an fhir oibre; ag meabhrú theideal gach leabhair; tiománaí bhus a seacht; de réir chaibidil a trí; ach in éadan muintir na hÉireann a bheith sa chogadh; le linn cú m’athar a dhíol; ar tí Ciarán a phósadh; tar éis Gaillimh a fhágáil.
    4.18 Ní shéimhítear
    Dé (gach brí), Déardaoin, San, purgadóra, parthais, ná roinnt ainmneacha dar tús na réimíreanna Mo, Do, Mao(i)l: lámh Dé; oíche Dé Luain; oíche Déardaoin; teacht San Nioclás; anamacha purgadóra (parthais); Scoil Mobhí; Cill Mocheallóg; bachall Dochiaróg; Coláiste Maolmhaodhóg
    ar lorg Féile (ginideach), Naomh, San, Dé (= lá), chun: Lá Fhéile Pádraig; Oíche na Féile Bríde; litreacha Naomh Pól; dúnmharú San Tomás; oíche Dé Máirt; chun bean an tí; chun Pádraig
    ainmneacha dílse áirithe a leanann seanrialacha stairiúla: Lia (Fianna) Fáil; Tobar Bríde; Cúige Mumhan

    in reply to: Genitives of genitives? #46397

    I meant, if the word in the genitive singular masculine ends with D, N, T, L or S and if it’s followed by a noun that starts with D, T, S (actuallt N and L aren’t lenited, at least in writing), then that second noun isn’t lenited (for phonetical reasons).

    in reply to: Genitives of genitives? #46395

    A masculine singular noun in the genitive case triggers the lenition on the following noun (except if two letters of the list DNTLS come together).

    in reply to: Genitives of genitives? #46393

    In these cases the 1st word would be in the genitive and the 2nd one wouldn’t change, except the lenition of its initial if the context triggers it.
    I think one would say “méid an tseomra shuí”, “fionnadh an mhic thíre”…

    in reply to: Gweedore pronunciation of “-ir” words #46391

    It’s the sweetest dialect (and to me, the sweetest language on earth) <3
    You could listen to Barrscéalta on RnaG; there are also interviews of Mairéad Ní Mhaonaigh on Youtube. Many people from GD here too: Dobhair

    in reply to: Gweedore pronunciation of “-ir” words #46389

    Rosie > I’ve been trying to learn and speak Gaoth Dobhair Irish for 23 years 🙂

    Labhrás wrote:
    Not at the end.
    There’s a normal slender r.

    normally the slender r’s are also pronounced like “y” at the end of words in Gaoth Dobhair.

    fir [fʲɪj]
    féir [fʲeːj]
    air [ej ~ ɛj]
    athair [ɛhɛj]
    máthair [mÊ·É›hÉ›j]
    óir [ɔːj]
    úir [uːj]
    deartháir [dʲaɾhaj]

    But in the case of “cuir” for example, they use “cur” instead (even as a conjugated verb) in GD as far as I know so they pronounce [kɔɾ] and not [*kɰɪj] or [*kÉ”j], normally.

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