[Marcoman]

That’s what I see, Aislingeach. Of course it is better than nothing. Don’t you agree? Maybe I didn’t see its good parts. Are any other textbooks of Munster Irish?
I know a man who started writing a very good textbook of Munster Irish, but stopped it. He put his lessons on a forum and helped very much: checked the excercises and and answered questions. He has written only twelwe lessons.

[Marcoman]

There is little practice in this textbook, practically no texts, auwful transcription. The grammar is given in a not very pragmatic way, and the vocabulaty is not so useful.

[Marcoman]

cleite coiligh – a feather of a cock
cleite an choiligh – the feather of the cock

It seems to me that the genitive makes the main word definite automatically. So it is probably the feather of a (or the, if we have the article before the genitive noun) cock. A feather would be cleite do choiligh (cleite don choligh), correct me, if I’m wrong.

[Marcoman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87x8R0BjgJk
Here Shiúil mé is definitely pronounced with slender L and M, isn’t it?

[Marcoman]

To genitive masculine singulars with the article. t, d are not lenited after n. s turns into t (spelt ts).
Feminine genitive singulars get only h-aspiration after the article na.

[Marcoman]

I don’t hear this schwa in beó, but just a consonant and a vowel. But in Ulster it is not a glide; it is a [j] sound,

[j] is a glide

and the consonant itself is not palatalized.

it is, btw it’s quite natural in Irish to palatalise a consonant that is followed by a [j]…

No, it’s a real consonant, slender gh. And there is no this consonant in the Connaght or Munster pronunciations of this word.
I hope you are not angry at me. I don’t know Irish, but I read about this pronunciation in books and hear it with my ears.
Tá caitín agamsa atá bán agus buidhe,
I n-aice na tine a bhíonn sé ina luighe.
Ní féidir leis léaghadh, ní féidir leis scríobhadh,
Ní labhrann sé focal le muintir an tighe.
Bímse ar scoil ag obair go dian,
Is mo chaitín ag baile ina chodladh fén ngrian.
I read this poem. My buí, luí are not very good here

[Marcoman]

A palatalized consonant sounds the same always: before any vowel or at the end of a syllable. There can be some glides but it doesn’t matter. Labials are not velarized before a schwa.

they are.
If I remember well, the slender/broad nature of a final b is the only way to distinguish certain prepositional pronouns in Connemara irish, like fùib and fùb (under you, under them), or something like that – have to check in Learning Irish or in Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge.

I mean that in Ulster they pronounce beó like bjo: and in other places it is pronounced like b’o:, ’ means palatalization.

outside Ulster they do have a glide there too, but it’s not the same, it’s rather an short [e] or a short schwa.

I don’t hear this schwa in beó, but just a consonant and a vowel. But in Ulster it is not a glide; it is a [j] sound, and the consonant itself is not palatalized.

[Marcoman]

I opened this thread because a similar topic is discussed in another thread. I argued with a man that the Rs in the “ar”s are broad. What do you hear?

[Marcoman]

I know about regressive assimilation in Irish. It is very strong.
A broad labial to me is a non-palatalized or a velarized labial.

Normally a broad consonant is a velarised labial, and since it is labial, it is labiovelarised ie. rounded, followed by a very short w sound.

Being palatalised doesn’t always mean it’s followed by a y-sound. Labial consonants (m, b, p, ph, f, bh, mh) are followed by a y-sound or an eh-sound only before back vowels like eo, iù etc (plus à in Munster and Connachta). Otherwise, slender labial consonants roughly sound like unrounded labial consonants.

A palatalized consonant sounds the same always: before any vowel or at the end of a syllable. There can be some glides but it doesn’t matter. Labials are not velarized before a schwa.
I mean that in Ulster they pronounce beó like bjo: and in other places it is pronounced like b’o:, ‘ means palatalization.

[Marcoman]

I always hear only broad labials in the Northern Irish.

hmm… what is a broad labial consonant, to you?

people don’t pronounce like that. I think it is always the following consonant that influences the preceding one, to make it slender or broad, not the opposite.

Does this hold true across the dialects, or is it specific to Ulster/Gaoth Dobhair?

all dialects. There may be a very few exceptions.
One exception for instance: in Cleare Island Irish (Co. Cork), “sé” becomes “sae”, “sì” becomes “suì” after certain verbal forms that end with a broad consonant, eg. (from memory) : “he goes”: téann sae instead of “téann sé”.

I know about regressive assimilation in Irish. It is very strong.
A broad labial to me is a non-palatalized or a velarized labial.

[Marcoman]

It may be clearer if you used the “quote” function : select the text you want to quote and click on the button “quote”. I had to read again my whole message to know where your answer began 🙂

Btw

I listened to this particular group. I heard both broad. I can be mistaken. I hear mé like ma in the Northern pronunciation: with broad m and schwa.

do you hear [ma] or a schwa ie. [mÉ™] ?
In Ulster people say ma, mÉ›, mÉ™, me, mæ… all these vowels are possible, but the m isnˈt broad (well, I never heard it broad, not described as such, anyway)

I’ve listened to this version : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qRGxzXauhs

first “shiúil mé” : they say [çulʲmʲe]
secondː same
thirdː same
fourthː same

which one do you hear broad?

[mÉ™]. I’ll listen again some time later. Now I can’t. I always hear only broad labials in the Northern Irish.

[Marcoman]

“that’s a slender consonant. A broad b is pronounced [bÊ·]. And “beo” isn’t pronounced like “bó”
I’d like to know where you read that in Ulster, labials become broad, because it sounds wrong. All the studies I read about Ulster dialects (ie. almost all those who were written) say that there are broad and slender labial consonants, as in all other dialects btw…
Maybe you read that final -m in the present tense 1st person ending, were broad? That’s right, but it’s just one case…”
I didn’t write [bo:]. I wrote [b’o:]. So in Ulster it is pronounced like b + j + long o. While in other places it is simply a slender b + long o. I write slender consonants with ‘.
“A broad L or a broad m?
I can’t tell you anyway since I didn’t hear your version of the song. The only version I know, as I said, is Skara Brae’s one.”
I listened to this particular group. I heard both broad. I can be mistaken. I hear mé like ma in the Northern pronunciation: with broad m and schwa.

[Marcoman]

“no. If the m of “mé” were broad, it’d be pronounced “mway”… and it isn’t.”
Why? It can’t be pronounced like that. With a clear w and a diphtongue. Isn’t it unstressed? I hear a schwa there. I thought mé was an exception and is pronounced with a schwa. And I hear a broad sound, not a slender one.
Sorry that I’m arguing with you. But I read that in the Nothern dialect the labials became broad, and that’s what I hear. beó is pronounced [bjo:] not [b’o:] there.

[Marcoman]

I see, I was wrong.
“it might be broad when the following word begins with a broad consonant but here it doesn’t, so I don’t know”
Aren’t labials always broad in Ulster Irish?
Could you listen and say what you hear? It might be because I misheard or because of singing, which changes the pronunciation. You are very helpful on this forum!

[Marcoman]

Chan fhuil aon mhìle ar shiùil mè ‘r an fad sin
Nach dtug mè deoch leanna do mo chailìn ruadh”
Why not shiúl? I hear shiúl with a broad l in the song.

[Author]

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