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The revival of Hebrew was not for the necessity of a “lingua franca”. Most of the immigrating Jews spoke several different languages and could have used English as the practical lingua franca as it has become the lingua franca of the world. The Jews sought to re-establish Hebrew because it was important to them. It was important to their identity as a people, as a nation , and as a living language in their own territory. Irish could be such a language if it were ideologically important to the greater majority of the people. The empirical evidence of the years since the Irish Free State seems to show it really isn’t that important to a critical mass of the Irish citizenry.August 26, 2013 at 9:17 am in reply to: Gnéithe suimiúla faoin Ghaeilge / Interesting ascpects to Irish #44266
I think the fact that feelings are “on you” is really interesting. There’s the idea that if they’re just on you you can get them off. They are not what you are essentially. I also think using the concept of “need” as being something “away from you” is also interesting. Ex…. Tá bia uaim. It is the opposite of the “to have” concept created by the preposition “ag”.
Tá brón orm. – There’s sorrow on me.
Tá cara agam. I have a friend Tá cara uaim. – I need a friend.
I think Labhrás is right on this. I was not understanding the meaning of the sentence correctly. Labhrás, would the indirect always follow something with the idea of “for which”……?
I am not sure but I think it is correct Irish becauwe “atá” refers to leas as seirbhís (benefit from the service) which you see is right in front of it. It seems that nested phrase there is just a simple direct relative clause in the middle of the sentence. These direct and indirect clauses are always tricky for me. I have to think of them in English to work my way through them.
Check it out at the Oideas Gael bookshop. It is 30 euros (about $45 plus shipping)
You can buy Tús Maith from Oideas Gael or LItriocht. They are both very reasonable and they give great service. The price is dirt cheap for what you are getting. The author put a lot of work into it and it would be a bargain if you had to pay 4X the price.
in central Donegal I too heard and was instructed to say “go ndéanaidh a mhaith duit” in response to GRMA. I usually say it after GRMA, but I also use “na habair é”. I know it’s an anglicism but I have just gotten into the habit of using it.
I agree with you both. These are problems we can discuss but we cannot solve. Bíodh deireadh seachtaine maith agaibh!
I appreciate the candor of you both. The truth is that there really AREN’T any perfect texts right now. But, there are good texts and they can help people at least start in the language. Students can be forewarned that natural Gaeltacht Irish is going to be a bit different, but a good start is half the work. In time perhaps there will be a real text created by people who are native speakers, who are educators, in the Gaeltacht who care to create them. I just went through this because when criticisms are raised (and Carmanach criticism is okay), it is helpful to give learners a constructive idea on a place to start. I realize this may be my own hangup. I just don’t like hearing all of the negatives on what is out there without some positive direction on materials that can be used for rank beginners. I seemed to detect that such a plethora of material was being inferred. That is why I start students out with the Tús Maith. It gives them SOMETHING upon which to build. Carmanach, I do not know you, but Lughaidh is an invaluable source for me when I am trying to know how something is said or written in natural Ulster Irish. I have written him private emails and he’s always been willing to lend a hand when I have a doubt or question. I am sure you are just as committed and passionate. I appreciate that. Please do not be offended by my intensity in pursuing this conversation. It is from my training and experience in cross-examing people in the courtroom. (I am a retired lawyer). Ps. I prefer studying Irish!
Lughaidh: Yes, you were the person who criticized Tús Maith before when I began studying, and I can well appreciate what you are saying. But, I will add that with all your many posts to this forum and others, I have never seen you take a definitive position and make a recommendation of an available text for a beginner student of Ulster Irish. It is easy to be an armchair quarterback and criticize the work of others. it is more difficult to point out what is out there and to give practical advice concerning what is available to learners who cannot go to the Gaeltacht as you have. It may be that there are no such texts. If that is the case then it would be helpful to just come out and say it. I may well be wrong in my perceptions but that is how it seems to me. It would be WONDERFUL if there were a text as well written and organized as Tús Maith with native speakers on it. I have never seen such a text. If it exists, then please tell us all what it is and where it can be purchased. Carmanach, in response to your reply, I wasn’t looking for such a text. I was asking you to substantiate your seemingly illusory claim that such materials were out there on the internet for all to find if they are just diligent enough. I just don’t think that is accurate, but thanks for the one text you did recommend. I think it is a great grammar related text, but I’ve never heard anyone claim that it helped them to learn to converse in Irish. Perhaps I am mistaken. Thank you both for your diligence and your interest in these things and for keeping these subjects at least in the forefront or learners’ attention.
Carmanch: You keep asking what dialect I am interested in learning. That was not the point of my inquiry. I have the silver fainne and I speak predominately Ulster Irish. I am an intermediate speaker. (rough but I can carry on a conversation) My experience has been in the Gaeltacht in and around Ardara.(Blue Stack Mountains area) My questions have been focused at the few of you who understandably are frustrated that learners start with “non-native speaker irish” texts, yet you usually give no alternative that seems to meet this “Native Speaker” criteria. And I may well be mistaken, but it seems whether you mean to or not, you discourage learners from even trying to take a shot at using what is available out there due to the dust kicked up by these well-meaning passionate discussions. It appears that other than “Teach Yourself Irish” (which I also have heard others here and on the other forums discourage from using as an elementary learning text due to its complexity and total lack of emphasis on speaking) there appear to be NONE that have been recommended and NONE that would start someone off in Ulster Irish. I would just caution you and others to not throw the “non-native Irish” baby out with the bath. If you must find fault, then write the creators of these texts and encourage them to use “native-speakers” in their new editions. I used “Tús Maith” and Dr. MacGabhann has done a masterful job with it. I recommend it a a great first text. The author, who is a retired professor, battled to learn Irish through his childhood and teens (he is a native of Derry) and succeeded and brought all of his children up in Irish in a surrounding that one could say is less than hospitable. Those children now are occasional teachers at Oideas Gael. That text was soundly criticized here by a non-Irish person who set himself up as a judge over what these people created. Yet it was they who invested their own time and money. It was a labor of love. That is just not right, and does NOTHING to further interest in the Irish language. I would ask that let’s (those of us who are also learners) be positive and supportive of the efforts that ARE being made in Ireland and outside of Ireland to foster interest in the language. Be careful with your criticisms. Words are so incredibly powerful. They can build up or destroy unknowingly.
My question is not that complicated. I want to know what text you would recommend for someone with no Irish at all. I do not know of a Beginner text done by native speakers and it is intimated on this forum that such texts exist. What are they?
I saw where Redwolf had recommended it on one of the forums. I think it will help me in my listening comprehension. I still am interested in any Beginner learning materials that you or Carmanach would recommend for Beginners. It is not for me, but for students who approach me and ask for recommendations on texts, etc to begin their voyage into the study of Irish. I am merely looking for Beginner texts done by native Irish Speakers. I really don’t know of any so I’m looking for solid advice. I am assuming from Carmanach’s response that he/she believes Teanga Beo is a good place to start. I am familiar with that text and have a copy. I just never really looked at it closely. So I’d like your thoughts on that one as well.
I would appreciate you referencing specifically the texts which you mention that are created by native speakers. I haven’t found (or perhaps I don’t know how to recognize) any such texts for beginners. I have just purchased “Speaking Irish” by Siuán Ní Mhaonaigh and Antain Mac Lochlainn. I met Antain at Oideas Gael last year and read his novel. This is not a beginners; text, but I’m excited about tackling it at my level.
Give some instances to help those who are on here looking. You and others suggest picking texts that are from native speakers, but there isn’t a list readily available. I know there’s a little course of phrases called “Enjoying Irish” authored by Eithne Ní Ghallchobhair. She’s a great lady and teacher from Ardara. It a nice phrase book, but not what I’d call a text.
Anyway, I’d appreciate some ideas,
I remember when I began learning I called Oideas Gael (from Texas) and they recommended I begin with Tús Maith. As time went by, I heard nothing but criticism on many forums (this one included) about using that resource. The criticisms are always from other non-native speakers. I purchased it from native-speakers who work there at Oideas Gael. They are from Teelin and surroundings. It was a WONDERFUL start. The confusion to learners comes because if that is what educators who are in fact native-speakers recommend a person to use, what is a person like Carmanach advocating? What would he propose that a rank beginner use? Not all people outside of Ireland have the financial resources to hop on a plane and spend several weeks in the Gaeltacht. When I was staying in a home in Teelin an older guy saw my “Glance Card” and commented, “That’s not my Irish!” I asked him to read it through for me and he reluctantly did so. I then commented, “Well until someone around here creates something else for learners, this is what we are given to use”. Now that I’m gaining a base in the language, I am able to listen to recordings and such of native-speakers. It is indeed difficult to understand them, but I have a start. I have something instead of nothing. I also try to now listen to RNG from time to time to sharpen my ear to the living language. I appreciate and for the most part understand all the comments about learners focusing on a “second hand” language, but learners must start somewhere, and until better materials are created by those who are so passionate, those are the materials that are readily available.