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Yeah, there are occasional requests for tattoos here but it’s not really the aim of this forum, as far as I can tell. For the most part, I think it’s a bad idea to get a tattoo in a language you don’t speak. There is the Irish Learner’s Forum that has a section specifically for tattoo requests.
Correct, except the verbal noun is “ceannach”.
It may help you to think of it this way: when you use the progressive construction (i.e. with ag + verbal noun), you are really saying “at the buying of fish” (genitive), whereas when you use a regular verb form you are actually giving the verb a direct object, so no genitive is required.
http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0333/D.0333.198203250004.html
One thing I like to do if I am questioning syntactic things like this is do Google searches for things that will find me examples of fluent writing that incorporate those ideas to see what they do. I did a search for “ceannach éisc” to see what comes up. The above link is the first one that looked to be something where you wouldn’t see silly grammatical errors appearing. Sure enough, here we have talk of people “atá ag plé le hiasc, ag ceannach éisc agus ag diol éisc, agus”. Definitely singular talk of fish being sold and dealt despite the fact that, undoubtedly, more than one fish is being transacted here. I’d say your book is right and it’s just an idiosyncracy of Irish fish-talk 😉
I’ve got a lot of fish.
My book says:
Tá a lán éisc agam.Shouldn’t it be:
Tá a lán iasc agam.I know a fish buyer.
My book says:
Tá aithne agam ar cheannaitheoir éisc.Shouldn’t it be:
Tá aithne agam ar cheannaitheoir iasc.He always buys fish from me.
My book says:
Ceannaíonn sé iasc uaim i gcónaí.Shouldn’t it be:
Ceaannaíonn sé éisc uaim i gcónaí.Is the book right or am I right in thinking that there is something fishy about this book?
*edit: Okay, I think I see why the last one is: Ceannaíonn sé iasc uaim i gcónaí.
It’s because “iasc” is the genitive plural, right? I still can’t figure out why the first 2 sentences are written that way in the book.Good questions. What book is this, out of curiosity and who wrote it? And the last sentence shouldn’t require anything genitive. In fact, that’s the only one of the sentences that DOESN’T need a genitive.
The reason, I suspect is that when talking about buying “fish” in Irish, they probably are using the singular instead of the plural, as is implied when we talk about it in English (even though it’s technically hard to tell, since they are the same). Having never purchased fish in Ireland, I wouldn’t know. But in every one of those sentences, they are consistently using the singular instead of the plural, whatever the case. So if the sentences are correct then it means you use the singular of “iasc” to talk about fish in general and only use “éisc” to talk about specific multiple fish.
Hmmm, I did not know that if it is true. Are you sure that it means exclusively that, or can it be used both ways?
All the dictionaries already mentioned are great. Those looking to add a slightly different approach to their arsenal may be interested in the following. One thing I own is a hard copy of An Foclóir Beag (Gaeilge – Gaeilge). I wouldn’t recommend this as your primary dictionary, as it obviously doesn’t give any translations of the words. What it does do is give you a brief definition or, in some cases, synonyms and phrases using different senses of the word in Irish. If you’ve used the Foclóir Beag site, it is basically the exact same content without all the declensions and conjugations spelled out for you (there is a reference for the irregular verbs, and the gender and declension category for each word is given, obviously).
The value of this is that I think it helps draw associations in your brain between different Irish words, essentially getting you closer to thinking in Irish. It is a cheap way of approximating some aspect of the experience of communicating with a fluent speaker who doesn’t speak English (obviously something you probably won’t have to really deal with in Irish). In other words, if you had to ask what “madra” meant and got the answer in Irish, that is a more powerful mental exercise than simply being told “dog”. Being told “ainmhí a choinnítear chun aoireachta nó seilge nó cosanta, nó mar pheata” makes you learn not only what the word symbolizes but also how it relates to other words and allows you to build a more complete picture of the most frequently used words in the language, i.e. those that are necessary to talk about most things.
I would actually encourage people to try as much as possible to look up a word first on Foclóir Beag and see if you can figure out what it means before you look up the translation. I think you’ll find it rewarding and you can make kind of a game out of it. If you don’t know a word in the definition, look that up too. You’ll sometimes find yourself going off on a tangent looking up 10 words just to figure out the meaning of your original word. But now you’ve associated 10 words with one another instead of learning them randomly on their own. I only wish they would publish a “Foclóir Mór”, with extensive definitions for each word in Irish.
Is é sin comhairle mhaith, a Héilics, agus is breá liom do tattoosa! Is é sin greannmhar! 😆
Grma 😉 ní cuimhin liom fiú cén áit a bhfuair mise é. bhí in a shuí i bhfillteán pictiurí ilghnéitheacha agam. Tá sé iontach feiliúnach don chás atá i gceist thuas, sílim.
I really advise against getting any tattoo that you yourself couldn’t have written and fully understand and be able to explain to someone if they ask about it.
Getting a tattoo in a language you don’t speak is just asking for problems. Even if you get it right and don’t litter your body with embarrassing grammatical errors, spelling errors, or worse, conceptual errors (“cúrsaí teaghlaigh” falls into this category, as it means something rather different than what you want), you will still be left to explain to people something that you don’t actually understand. At best you can hope to memorize someone else’s (hopefully) good explanation of the tattoo and hope that the conversation doesn’t stray from those talking points.
I don’t mean to sound preachy or condescending, but I think people should really examine their motivations for wanting to get a tattoo in a language they don’t speak. If you think it’s part of your heritage, then you really should learn it before you invest in inking it on yourself. If you actually believe it’s part of who you are, this isn’t asking a lot, in fact one might say it’s your duty if you truly believe it. If you think it will make a cool conversation piece and make you look more cultured, then well.. I don’t have a whole lot of sympathy for such people who get horribly wrong tattoos.
If you do insist on getting a tattoo in Irish, I would make the following advice: at least choose an existing saying or piece of writing that came from a native Irish speaker. Resist the urge to take a saying that you like in English and try to conform it to Irish, because it very rarely works.
And, while I really don’t want to slander a group of people, I would not recommend the Irish Translation Forum. There are a few people with good grammatical knowledge of Irish there but as far as I know, no native speakers, and every single thread there devolves into indecision and I can basically guarantee you won’t achieve actual resolution on your question. At best you can expect a grammatically correct translation that may or may not mean what you really want it to mean and probably won’t sound very “Irish”. That’s my opinion though, and I don’t want to offend anyone here who uses both forums.
To shed a little more light on the actual grammar at work here, I will try to explain and obviously please correct me if I’m wrong 🙂
The word á has several meanings, but one of which is actually a shortened form of “do + a = dá“, which is the old say of doing this and sometimes you still see it. Here, the “a” should be thought of as the possessive pronoun (“his, her, its”).
Knowing this, it can help to break it down like this:
Tá litir á scríobh agam = Tá litir dá scríobh agam = There is a letter to its writing at me (i.e. there is a letter being written by me).
Notice that since it is technically a possessive construction in this instance, the “object” so to speak (here the subject, since it is passive voice) gender and number will dictate what kind of mutation takes place after á.
Note that “glic” is what will usually come up as an adjective in a translating dictionary, but this is definitely NOT the word you want to use. In England and Ireland, the word “cute” typically means cheeky, impudent, smart-mouthed, etc. American English is where we have “cute” meaning something adorable. I don’t think there is an exact Irish equivalent of this word in the way we use it.
The closest word that I know is “gleoite”, which is definitely used to describe, for instance a cute girl (i.e. a girl who is attractive). I have also seen it used to describe things like Panda bears, so I think it’s safe to say that the meaning extends or is currently expanding to include the ways in which we usually talk about “cute” things in American English.
Aside from that, you usually can’t go wrong with calling something or something “breá” or “deas” or adding “an-” and lenition to something. All of those will convey that you think something is pretty darn nice.
Basically what Lughaidh said. I would add that some might find “Gaoluinn” more pleasing to look at, as it obeys the “broad with broad, slender with slender” rule. Even though “ae” is typically treated as a broad unit, despite the fact that “e” is a slender vowel, there is something funny looking about “Gaelainn” as a result (even though that’s how I personally spell it).
Yes, that’s my understanding of them too. The verbal nouns in the gen. case above are the equivalent of the English gerund rather than the present participle.
Two interpretations of the term “cleaning woman” illiustrate the difference well:-
(a) A woman who’s profession it is to clean. – Gerund. Genitive of verbal noun (or sometimes a form ending in “-chán” e.g. “itheachán”) in Irish.
(b) A woman engaged in the activity of cleaning right now. (She may be an accountant or a nurse for all we know.) – Present Participle. Apparently “…. (atá) ag verbal noun” in Irish. That’s what I’ve been trying to understand.P.S. I can see a basic difference between two examples of “present pariciple + noun” in the genitive case I gave in my last post:-
“The wife of the dancing man” (who is dancing now)
Bean an fhir atá ag rinnce/Bean an Fhear atá ag rinnce?“Land of the Rising Sun”(directly translated*)
Tír na Gréine/an Ghrian (atá) ag Éirghe? (the “atá” seems odd to me in this one)In the first “the dancing man” seems like any old noun qualified by an attributive adjective, but in the second “the Rising Sun” seems to be a fixed unit with the time in which the activity described happens not indicated.
This is why, I think, the “atá” felt wrong.I feel your general barrier here is that you are still thinking in English and then trying to translate that thinking into Irish. The constructions that exist in English can sometimes be reflected in Irish constructions but it’s important to remember that Irish is Irish, if that makes any sense. Look for actual examples of this type of construction in Irish and copy it. I think sometimes learners try to reinvent the wheel, so to speak.
Running man = fear reatha.
Picture of a flying hawk = pictiúr de sheabhac eitilte.I understand these as “a man that is meant to run” (whose job is to run…),” a hawk that is “designed” to fly”.
Not “running man (man who’s running)” nor “flying hawk” (hawk that’s flying).I don’t understand your interpretation here. What about the genitive to you suggests purpose or the meaning “meant to”?
