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July 25, 2014 at 10:34 am in reply to: How to choose a modal of obligation for a given context? #45400HugoParticipant
2. Tá agat le himeacht.
Are you sure about this one? You can say “Níl agam ach imeacht” (“I have no alternative but to leave”), but I have some doubts about “tá agat le himeacht”.
The structure “tá agam le himeacht” is okay. And with an object: “tá agam leis an teach a phéinteáil”. The first time I came across it I thought it was a typo for “Tá an teach le péinteáil agam”. I suppose they correspond to the English “I have to paint the house” and “I have the house to paint”. I think it’s more of an Ulster form, though “caithfidh mé” would be more common. I remember seeing it in GGMB in a section about ways to express obligation.
HugoParticipantI imagine you could also use the conditional autonomous if you didn’t have any specific person in mind: an dtabharfaí ___ dom? – could someone give me ___ ? an sínfí ___ chugam? But that’s somewhat more speculative. Or “an dtabharfadh éinne __ ?” if you didn’t to use the autonomous.
The conditional autonomous would be weird: “Would the potatoes be passed/given to me?”(“Would I be passed/given the potatoes?”). For the conditional to have the sense of a request I’d say a subject is needed: “An sínfeá/an sínfeadh éinne(/duine éigin…). The saorbhriathar can be translated into English by the passive, or by “they”, “people” or “one” as an unspecified subject, but not really by”someone”.
On the other hand, I suppose the saorbhriathar could be used in the conditional thus: “An dtiocfaí/bhféadfaí na prátaí a chur/shíneadh (anall) chugam?” – “Could/might I be passed the potatoes?”
“Cuir” could be used too as an alternative to “sín”.
May 27, 2014 at 7:29 pm in reply to: More than one way to express some thoughts–which to use? #45311HugoParticipant‘An Foclóir Beag’ is available from Litríocht.com for 7 euros (postage not included).
HugoParticipantI’d think “Iníon Fhaoláin” is ok – as in ‘Seo í iníon Fhaoláin/ Tá aithne mhaith agam ar iníon Fhaoláin…’ Mar a deir tú, ní sloinne atá i gceist. But perhaps “Iníon le Faolán” would be better? Strictly speaking, “Iníon Fhaoláin” = (The) daughter of Phelan,; “Iníon le Faolán” = (A) daughter of Phelan. Best to wait for more opinions.
HugoParticipantAlso note that in some cases I changed mutations to conform to non-Ulster Irish (i.e. putting eclipsis where the speaker here uses lenition in prep. + an + noun constructions). These aren’t mistakes, they were conscious decisions on my part, so these don’t need correction either 😉
Yes, but “sa bhaile” isn’t Ulster-specific; it’s standard. I didn’t “correct” any other mutations (though I wanted to). You asked for a transcription. The narrator lenites. I don’t think I’ll bother my arse transcribing any more (even though I have 2 & 3 all sussed now)!
HugoParticipantWell done, Héilics and Hugo! I can only add this:
“Bhí beilt uaine ar an ngaiscíoch a chaill [the warrior who lost (the fight)] agus bhaineadar de í agus chuireadar ar mhac na baintrí í.”
Thanks for “a chaill”, Onuvanja! I thought of “chaill” but couldn’t hear the “a”, so “chaill” made no sense to me, so I Then thought it might be some adjective sounding like “hal” (with lenition)… 🙄 but found none that fitted!
HugoParticipant
Gaiscíoch na Beilte UaineIntreoir
A chara, [color=red]tar(?)[/color] agus éist le mo scéal. Seo mar a chuala mé féin é agus ní bréag ar bith é. Bodhar ní chluinfinn é, dall ní fheicfinn é ach seo é mar is fearr é.
Caibidil 1
Fadó fadó bhí baintreach ann agus [color=red]bhí[/color] mac amháin aici. D’imigh sí ar fud na tíre ag ceannach [color=red]([/color]l[color=red])[/color]uibheacha [color=red(eggs!)[/color] agus ag díol aráin mar shlí bheatha. Bhí sí ag déanamh go maith agus ag cothú a mic go maith go dtí go raibh sé bliain agus fiche. Bhuail [color=red]an náire an [/color]mac ansin agus dúirt lena mháthair go raibh sé in am dó ag dul ag triall ar a fhortún. “Tá go maith” arsa a mháthair. “Tabhairfidh mé mo sheacht mbeannacht duit.” Maidin lá arna mhárach, d’éirigh sé agus thosaigh sé ar an turas. Thug sé a aghaidh soir ó dheas. Ag imeacht gan chara [color=red]gan[/color] chompánach. Thrasnaigh sé seacht gcnoc, seacht ngleann, seacht gcaisleán de léim. Bhí torann a cos ag bualadh na colainne agus torann na colainne ag bualadh a chuid cos (?). [color=red]Thug(?)[/color] sé an cnoc de léim agus an an gleann de choiscéim. Bhí sé ag taisteal i dteas bog na maidine go teas trom an mheánlae. Lean sé leis go raibh solas séimh an lae ag imeacht agus néalta dubha dorcha na hoíche ag teacht gur tháinig sé isteach sa [color=red]bh[/color]aile mór. Ní raibh sé i mbaile mór ariamh roimhe sin. Chonaic sé teach ina raibh solas lasta agus chuala sé ceol [color=red]([/color]ag[color=red])[/color] rince [color=red](dance music)[/color] ann. “Rachaidh mé isteach anseo”, a dúirt sé leis féin, “go bhfeicfidh mé cén sórt dream daoine atá ann.” Agus chuaigh. B’aoibhinn an radharc sa seomra damhsa. Bhí na soilse ag lonrú ar mhrá dóighiúla agus ar fhir chalma. Ní raibh sé i bhfad istigh nuair a [color=red]thainig[/color] fear [color=red]a fhad[/color] leis. “An bhfuair tú cuireadh teacht isteach?” a dúirt an fear leis. “Duine ar bith a thagann isteach gan cuireadh, caithfidh sé troid sula dtéann sé amach.” “Ní bhfuair mé”, a dúirt sé. Más sin mar atá, ní thabhairfidh (?) mise suas don troid.” Bhí gaiscíoch óg acu le haghaidh troda. Chuadar [color=red]i gceann[/color] a chéile. Bhí iontas an domhain ar gach aon duine nuair a chonaic siad an fear strainséara seo ag troid go cumasach. Níor mhair an gaiscíoch óg leathuair an chloig [color=red]gur ghéill[/color] sé (?). Bhí beilt uaine ag an ngaiscíoch [color=red]([/color]le caill[color=red]) I don’t know what it is, but I’m pretty sure it’s not “le caill”[/color] agus bhain[color=red]eadar[/color] de í agus chuireadar ar mhac na baintrí í. Caithfidh tú fanacht linn ar [color=red]go ceann[/color] bliana. Gheobhaidh tú pá maith”, a dúirt na daoine uaisle. “Is é an t-ainm a thabhramid anois ort ná Gaiscíoch na Beilte Uaine.”
Thanks for this. My own listening skills need vast improvement- and there were things you got which I didn’t. Re that sentence with “torann, cos, colainne”, I hear what you hear, but I don’t quite understand.
Haven’t had time to listen to the whole of Ch 2 yet, but the first blank is (…dhuine) a throidfeadh (ar a son)”.HugoParticipantI don’t have Munster Irish, but I wondered if it might be a form of “ath-thuras”. I looked up FGB on line and, sure enough, it says “ath + t” > “at-“. So “an t-aturas’ = “an t-aththuras” = “the (a?) further journey”. There was me thinking “at-” might be a variant form of “athth-“, whereas it seems “at-” is the standard form. I had no idea.
I’m reading An Odaisé in Irish…
Still?!! Are you reading it in real time? 🙂
HugoParticipantAontaím le hOnuvanja. Má úsáidtear “de chuid”, caithfidh an t-alt a bheith ann.
HugoParticipant@ Onuvanja, you’re dead right: ‘fear Bhríd’ rather than ‘fear Bhríde’. ‘Coláiste Bhríde’ was what I had first, then I changed it to ‘fear Bhríde’ but never thought to make it ‘Bhríd’. Does this mean that nowadays ‘Bhríde’ is used only to refer to the saint?
What thread are you referring to?@Héilics, re lenition of ‘Pádraig’, apologies for any perceived ambiguity though I thought “teach Phádraig” in the first line of my post might be a hint 🙂 . I’d ‘ve thought “Pádraig doesn’t” clearly refers back to “may change”, all separated in parentheses from the part about lenition. So yes, ‘Padraig’ is lenited in the genitive, but not after “féile” etc. Anyway, I’m pretty sure your knowledge of the grammar is at the very least equal to mine 🙂 .
HugoParticipantNames of persons are lenited in the genitive – ‘ teach Phádraig’, ‘áthair Mháire’. (On top of that, they’re declined and may change slightly in the genitive: ‘Seán’> ‘mac Sheáin’; ‘Bríd’> ‘Coláiste Bhríde’, but ‘Pádraig’ doesn’t. It all depends on which declension they belong to.) However, in an exception to the rule, there’s no lenition after ”féile’, ‘naomh’ and some other words, hence ‘Lá Fhéile Pádraig’.
‘(‘teach fir’ – a man’s house; ‘teach an fhir’ – the man’s house. Lenition only occurs if the definite article is there).
Nancy deals with all this at some point no doubt.
Ooops. Crossed with Onuvanja.
HugoParticipantMo leithscéal nár mhínigh me go soileir é, a Héilics. Ag tagairt do “Bheadh sé” a bhí mé.
Bheadh sé “ar ar thug tú cuairt…” agus Tá/bheadh sé fear. Is é an drochstruchtúr céanna é.
HugoParticipantBheadh sé “ar ar thug tú cuairt” nó “ar thug tú cuairt orthu”, ach aontaím le Cúnla, ar bhonn is nach n-úsáidtear “cuairt” mar sin, i mo thuairimse. B’fhearr an focal é má tá daoine i gceist.
1- Cé gur féidir “cuairt a thabhairt” ar áiteacha/áiteanna chomh maith, is dócha go mbeadh leagan Chúnla níos nadúrthaí sa chomthéacs seo.
2- “ar thug” an leagan caighdéanach, ach is é “a dtug” (ar nós “bí”, “feic”, srl.) is mó a deirtear i nDún na nGall.
So, a Sheán, bheadh “ar a dtug tú cuairt”/”a dtug tú cuairt orthu” ceart in Ultaibh.
3-
Bheadh sé “ar ar thug tú cuairt”
A Héilics Órbhuí, nach ndeirfeá go bhfuil boladh an Táséfearachais air sin? 🙂
HugoParticipantAn t-aistritheoir a bhí freagrach as “Cé is féidir cabhrú leat?”, b’fhearr dó ceird eile a chuartú.
HugoParticipantMá chloímid le “féidir”: “Cé ar féidir leis (leo?) cabhrú leat?”
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