Genitive with personal names

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  • #36496
    Onuvanja
    Participant

    A chairde, I have a question. How do you form the genitive of female names ending in a consonant, such as Bríd and Eilís? Based on a quick look at literary sources (An Braon Broghach), I would say it’s done by adding a vowel, thus Bhríde and Eilíse. Is that also the case for spoken language? Oddly enough, in “Learning Irish” by O’Siadhail, Lesson 3, you are taught “muintir Bhríd” (Bríd’s family). Of course, I knew the expression “Féile Bríde”, but I always it was an archaic form. Now I’m starting to think I’ve had it wrong all along…

    Any ideas on that?

    #43484
    Onuvanja
    Participant

    Thanks for your thorough reply, Carmanach! Why didn’t occur to me to have a look in the Christian Brothers in the first place. 🙂 As you say, sometimes it’s hard to know whether a vowel has been added to the name, as unstressed final vowels tend to disappear when followed by a word which starts with a vowel. For instance, it would sound the same, whether you say “Tá teach Bhríd anseo” or “Tá teach Bhríde anseo”.

    #43494
    Lughaidh
    Participant

    It’s rarely, if ever, taught to learners though. Why?

    maybe because many teachers don’t know it? 🙂

    #43495
    Aislingeach
    Participant

    [Yes, this is called vowel elision – unstressed final vowels are lost before an oncoming vowel – and is very common in spoken Irish. It’s rarely, if ever, taught to learners though. Why? I don’t know as it is a basic part of the spoken language and occurs in all Gaeltacht areas.

    Actually, I did learn that somewhere, but I can’t remember if it was TYI, Learning Irish or somewhere else. But it was in conjunction with what whomever called the “helping vowel,” that schwa that goes between two awkward consonants. Kind of like a “the vowels you drop and the vowels you add” thing. Made pronunciation much easier.

    #43498
    Onuvanja
    Participant

    Just to add one more thought on the subject. I think O’Siadhail also has “seomra Dhiarmaid” instead of “Dhiarmada”? Can there really be that much (dialectal) variation or are we dealing with a mistake here?

    #43501
    Cúnla
    Participant

    As Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge: An Deilbhíocht le Tomás de Bhaldraithe:

    Tá corr-fhocal ann a bhfuil níos mó ná leagan amháin air sa nginideach uatha, e.g. … Diarmaid (g. Diarmaid, Diarmada) …

    E.g., ʃḍæ:f′ jiÉ™rmid′ Steaif Dhiarmaid ; dÊ’o: he:miʃ jiÉ™rmid′ Jó Shéamuis Dhiarmaid (33) ; ma:k fÉ‘:rik′ xel′im′ jiÉ™rmÉ™dÉ™ Mac Phádraig Choilim Dhiarmada.

    Maidir le ginideach ainmneacha ban:

    Ní infhilltear an aidiacht a ghabhann le ainm baiste mná, e.g. t′i: wÉ‘:r′ə wÉ‘:n tigh Mháire Bhán ; É¡É™ wÉ‘:r′ə wo:r do Mháire Mhór (63) (ach t′i: he:miʃ v′iɡ′ tigh Shéamuis Bhig, etc.).

    m′ik′il′ wÉ‘:r′o:É¡ Micil Mháireog ; ma:k vr′i:d′o:É¡ mac Bhríghdeóg.

    Sílim nach n-infhilltear ainmneacha ban i gConamara ach amháin ainmneacha na mban-naomh, e.g.:

    fi: e:l′ br′i:d′ə faoi Fhéil Brighde

    #43502
    Onuvanja
    Participant

    GRMA as na samplaí sin, a Chúnla! Níor chuir mé an cheist ach le tuilleadh eolais a fháil ar úsáid an ghinidigh. Cé go bhfuil meas ollmhór agam ar an tSiadhalach, ní cainteoir dhúchais é agus níl “Learning Irish” saor ó locht ach an oiread. An bhféadfá a rá mar sin gur ar an réimse teanga a bhraitheann foirmeacha ginidigh chomh maith agus gur sa teanga scríofa don chuid is mó a gheobhfá “Dhiarmada” agus a léitheid?

    #43503
    Cúnla
    Participant

    Ní hea. Is túisce a d’imigh foirm an ghinidigh as cuide de na canúintí ná a chéile, de réir cosúlachta. Is iomaí nóta ag an Duinníneach, cuirim i gcás, ina míníonn sé go ndíochlaontar ainm áirithe mná i gcanúint áirithe (i nDún na nGall is mó), e.g.:

    Nuala, g. -ann, d. -ainn, f., … declined in Don.

    http://glg.csisdmz.ul.ie/flash/lo/0801.jpg

    …Agus is cosúil gurb amhlaidh a d’imigh foirm ghinideach na n-ainmneacha ban as canúint Chonamara, agus go mb’fhéidir go bhfuil foirm ghinideach na n-ainmneacha fear ag imeacht léi freisin…?

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