Genitives of genitives?

[Rosie]

If I were to go through the declension of something like “living room,” would only the “[color=green]room[/color]” part change? I.e.: “an [color=brown]seomra[/color] suí”/”an [color=brown]tseomra[/color] suí”/”na [color=brown]seomraí[/color] suí”/”na [color=brown]seomraí[/color] suí”…..I know that, if it were a true [color=gray]adjective[/color], “suí” would also change along with “seomra,” but since “suí” is itself a genitive [color=purple]noun[/color], USED as an adjective (in a way), would it just stay the same throughout the declension? Same thing for a term like “mac [color=red]tíre[/color]”? Also, teanglann.ie seems to say that the nominative cases of nouns are used in place of the genitive case, unless preceeded by the articles “an” or “na”…is this true? Would it be “wrong” to use the genitive w/o the article? Thanks!

[Lughaidh]

In these cases the 1st word would be in the genitive and the 2nd one wouldn’t change, except the lenition of its initial if the context triggers it.
I think one would say “méid an tseomra shuí”, “fionnadh an mhic thíre”…

[Rosie]

Yay! That’s a relief…things were getting complicated! If I could ask another question…what (in those examples, for instance) is it that triggers such lenition?

[Lughaidh]

A masculine singular noun in the genitive case triggers the lenition on the following noun (except if two letters of the list DNTLS come together).

[Rosie]

Wow, thanks, Lughaidh, you know a lot! This is gonna help, cause I’m trying to make detailed flash cards on the declensions of common nouns on Tinycards to train myself. I tried to find more myself about that “dntls” list you gave, but I came up short…does that mean that if the main noun [color=red]ends[/color] with one of those letters and the adjective (or genitive noun) [color=green]starts[/color] with one of those letters, there would be no lenition?…or does it mean that if two of those letters came together in the same word (solas [color=red]tr[/color]áchta), [color=brown]then[/color] there’d be no lenition. Sorry, I’m a little ask-y lately. I’ll go dormant for awhile here’na minute. 😋

[Lughaidh]

I meant, if the word in the genitive singular masculine ends with D, N, T, L or S and if it’s followed by a noun that starts with D, T, S (actuallt N and L aren’t lenited, at least in writing), then that second noun isn’t lenited (for phonetical reasons).

[Rosie]

🎶AWWE🎵some!! 😃Thanks!

[Onuvanja]

In these cases the 1st word would be in the genitive and the 2nd one wouldn’t change, except the lenition of its initial if the context triggers it.
I think one would say “méid an tseomra shuí”, “fionnadh an mhic thíre”…

Are you quite sure about this, Lughaidh? Granted, if a definite noun was followed by an adjective (e.g. an seomra dorcha), the adjective would be lenited in the genitive (doras an tseomra dhorcha). But would the same happen if it was a noun? I can’t find any rule specifying that and if you do a Google search, you’ll get things like “ceird an mhúinteoira bunscoile” and “doras an tseomra folctha” (rather than “bhunscoile” or “fholctha”) or “craiceann na bó bainne”, which isn’t very conclusive …

[Lughaidh]

Are you quite sure about this, Lughaidh? Granted, if a definite noun was followed by an adjective (e.g. an seomra dorcha), the adjective would be lenited in the genitive (doras an tseomra dhorcha). But would the same happen if it was a noun?

normally yes but there are exceptions.

I can’t find any rule specifying that and if you do a Google search, you’ll get things like “ceird an mhúinteoira bunscoile” and “doras an tseomra folctha” (rather than “bhunscoile” or “fholctha”) or “craiceann na bó bainne”, which isn’t very conclusive …

I trust more grammar books than Google. Remember, most of what is written (or spoken) in Irish on the internet isn’t very correct.
“Craiceann na bó bainne” has nothing to do with what I said, since “bó” is a singular feminine noun in the genitive: those never lenite whatevr comes after them.

as far as masculine singular is concerned, this is what Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí says:

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4.15 Séimhítear tuiseal ginideach ainmfhocail éiginnte nó ainm briathartha atá faoi réir ag ainmfhocal eile nuair is ainmfhocal baininscneach uatha (nach ginideach) an chéad ainmfhocal
ar lorg focal a léiríonn cainníocht: cloch phrátaí; glac thairní; trí splaideog chéille
nuair atá an ginideach ina ainm briathartha: cloch cheangail; léim sheachanta; bean chaointe
nuair atá an ginideach ina ghinideach comhaisnéise i gcás ainmhí nó ruda: púróg chloiche; stail chapaill; cráin mhuice; ach óinseach mná, baintreach fir
nuair atá an ginideach ina ainmfhocal ábhair: súil ghloine; tine mhóna; coinneal chéarach
i ndiaidh beirt, dís: beirt bhuachaillí; dís bhan.
4.16 Ainneoin a bhfuil ráite in 4.14, ní gnách séimhiú ar ghinideach ainmfhocail éiginnte nó ainm bhriathartha atá faoi réir ag ainmfhocal eile sna cásanna seo:
ar d, s, t ar lorg d, l, n, s, t, ach i gcorrchás: bean siúil; cos deiridh; slat tiomána; tonn tuile; min seagail; beirt sagart ach maidin shamhraidh (sheaca); ná ar f tosaigh, mar gur féidir le séimhiú cuma éiginnte nó ait a chur ar an mbunfhocal sa chaint: deoir fola [fhola nó ola], ach an ghlóir fhlaithiúnais
ar lorg ainm theibí nuair nach ginideach ainm bhriathartha nó ginideach comhaisnéise a bheadh i gceist: aois gadhair; airde fir; intleacht mná; acmhainn grinn; ach cúis gháire (ghearáin, mhagaidh), cabaireacht chainte
ar lorg ainmfhocal a chiallaíonn cuid, easpa, iomarca: ailp feola; roinnt bagúin; easpa taithí; breis bainne; an iomarca moille; mo chuid cainte
ar lorg focal a chiallaíonn ball de dhuine nó d’ainmhí nó d’éan nó páirt de rud: lámh duine; adharc bó; crúb coiligh; gualainn cnoic.
Tá focail mar sin ann a ngabhann séimhiú leo mar nach ndearctar orthu mar bhaill bheatha níos mó ach mar ábhair itheacháin: saill mhuice; ceathrú chaoireola; leis chirce; fleasc bhradáin, nó go meafarach: baineadh fuil mhairt as (anrud fola).
ar lorg ainm bhriathartha a bhfuil réamhfhocal roimhe: ag tógáil potaí; a iarraidh comhairle; ar chosaint cathracha; ach amháin i leaganacha seanbhunaithe mar ag fáil bháis (bhisigh)
Tá eisceachtaí eile ón riail seo le fáil sa teanga thall agus abhus, go háirithe le frásaí atá an choitianta: ag cur choirce, ag baint mhóna, etc., ach arís ní athraíonn siad substaint na rialach.
ar lorg ainmfhocail éiginnte atá ar aon fhoirm le hainm briathartha: cosaint cúise; fulaingt péine; tiomáint gluaisteáin
ar lorg cnuasainm más san iolra atá an ginideach: saithe beach; scaoth cuileog; buíon fear; ach dís fhear; clann mhac; buíon cheoil (chosanta)
más gníomhaí an ginideach: seitreach capaill; géimneach bó; coiscéim coiligh
más ginideach pearsanta comhaisnéise an ginideach: óinseach mná baintreach fir; a Thiarna Breithimh
má chuireann ginideach pearsanta in iúl cé leis nó cé lena aghaidh duine nó rud: clann feirmeora; bróg mná; culaith fir
má tá an ginideach cáilithe: oíche gaoithe móire; scian coise adhairce; bean baile mhóir.
Séimhiú agus Ainmfhocal Cinnte sa Ghinideach
4.17 Séimhítear ainmfhocal cinnte a bhfuil feidhm ghinideach aige agus nach gníomhaí ná cuspóir é d’ainm briathartha atá ar a lorg
foireann Dhoire; muintir Sheáin; Coláiste Cholmáin; Cuan Bhaile Átha Cliath; oibrithe Bhéal Feirste
mac fhear an tí; obair bhean an tábhairne; díon shiopa an bhúistéara; Oíche Fhéile Eoin; asal Sheáin nó Mháire
ar aghaidh dhoras an tséipéil; os comhair Sheáin; in aice Chill Airne; faoi choinne pháistí na Gaeltachta; fearacht mhuintir na hAlban; dála Chonradh na Gaeilge; timpeall chósta na hEorpa; trasna Bhá an Daingin
ag cáineadh mhuintir Shligigh; ag moladh chlann an fhir oibre; ag meabhrú theideal gach leabhair; tiománaí bhus a seacht; de réir chaibidil a trí; ach in éadan muintir na hÉireann a bheith sa chogadh; le linn cú m’athar a dhíol; ar tí Ciarán a phósadh; tar éis Gaillimh a fhágáil.
4.18 Ní shéimhítear
Dé (gach brí), Déardaoin, San, purgadóra, parthais, ná roinnt ainmneacha dar tús na réimíreanna Mo, Do, Mao(i)l: lámh Dé; oíche Dé Luain; oíche Déardaoin; teacht San Nioclás; anamacha purgadóra (parthais); Scoil Mobhí; Cill Mocheallóg; bachall Dochiaróg; Coláiste Maolmhaodhóg
ar lorg Féile (ginideach), Naomh, San, Dé (= lá), chun: Lá Fhéile Pádraig; Oíche na Féile Bríde; litreacha Naomh Pól; dúnmharú San Tomás; oíche Dé Máirt; chun bean an tí; chun Pádraig
ainmneacha dílse áirithe a leanann seanrialacha stairiúla: Lia (Fianna) Fáil; Tobar Bríde; Cúige Mumhan

[Lughaidh]

(continued)
4.19 Is de réir rialacha 4.14 15 a shéimhítear
ainmneacha laethanta, míonna agus teangacha: Oíche Shamhna; maidin Mháirt; amhráin Ghearmáinise; ach Lá Samhna; tráthnóna Sathairn; leabhar Béarla.
ainm briathartha ginideach a bhfuil cuspóir cinnte nó éiginnte faoi réir aige: bean chasta an tuirne; bean chardála olla; seachtain bhailithe na rátaí; fir bhuailte an arbhair; fir mhúchta tinte; ach lucht múchta tinte; lá buailte an arbhair
an chéad ghinideach de phéire ginideach atá araon faoi réir ag focal a thagann roimh an bpéire: bean choimhdeachta na banríona; misneach phobal Latharna; triomú mhóin Eoin; costas bhainne an naíonáin. Ach teach pobail Latharna; cliabh móna Eoin; buidéal bainne an naíonáin. Sna trí shampla dheireanacha tá an tríú focal faoi réir ag an gcéad cheann agus ní ag an dara ceann.
4.20 Séimhítear ainmfhocal atá ar lorg foirm stairiúil den chopail: ba dhuine mór é; ní leis ab fhaillí é; ar shagart é? nár chapall maith é? cheap sé gur ghadaí é; níor thaibhse é; níorbh fheirmeoir é; murar bhád é; fear dar shloinne Ó Néill.

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So far I’ve not found much about the case of NOUN + ARTICLE + NOUN in the G + NOUN in the G but afaik the rule is as it is after a feminine noun in the nominative case.
Have to search more but I wonder if this has been described in detail somewhere, if it’s not in GGBC…

[Onuvanja]

Yes, that’s the problem. There are loads of rules on “ainmfhocal éiginnte” (indefinite noun) in GGBC and Caighdéan Oifigiúil (Athbhreathnaithe), but nothing on the definite noun + attribute in the genitive case. “Méid seomra suí” (size of A livingroom) or “fionnadh mac tíre” (skin of A wolf) is easy enough, but what happens in “méid an tseomra s(h)uí” and “fionnadh an mhac/mhic t(h)íre”. I have to say I’m a bit at a loss…

[Héilics Órbhuí]

I hate to dispute what Lughaidh says because I’ve not near the expertise that he does, but I don’t think I’ve *ever* seen this in all my reading. Maybe I missed it but I don’t see a rule cited that applies to this situation.

[Onuvanja]

Looks like we’ve discovered a new ‘grey area’ in Irish grammar. 🙂 I suppose if there’s no rule for this particular situation, we shall have to look at actual usage. I tried to conduct a cursory search of Irish legislation on achtanna.ie, but didn’t come up with much. Google provides plenty of examples, but as Lughaidh said, most of them are machine-translated adverts and stuff like that… I wonder if Labhrás or someone else can help us out with this one?

[Héilics Órbhuí]

I’m definitely in agreement that Google results should be scrutinized, but I see at least a few results for “an tseomra suí” popping up from books written by people at least fluent (I know Alex Hijmans is not a native speaker, but as far as I know he’s at least reasonably respected in the publishing community, as is Michael Davitt). Also plenty of results from gaois.ie. If I consider that I also have just never encountered a situation where a noun was lenited like that and I see no rule in the above-cited sections nor in my own search through my copy of the book, I see no evidence that something like “an tseomra shuí” to be correct. I’m sure Labhrás will weigh in on this eventually, but I’ll be incredibly surprised if he says that this is legit.

[Lughaidh]

Since I haven’t found the solution in grammar books, I’ve just guessed it was the same thing after genitive singular masculine nouns as after nominative singular feminine nouns since they behave in the same way in most points of view. But maybe I’m wrong.
It’s a bit hard to find the answer in databases too because one can only search for specific words and not grammatical situations like “all masculine nouns in the genitive that are followed by another noun”.
But it’s a pity that grammar books don’t deal with that subject, it’s not an exceptional case so books should explain !
Maybe people like Lillis Ó Laoire would know, I’ll ask on Facebook.

[Author]

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