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Hi…I’m new here and came seeking help. I was wondering if there is anyway I could have a phrase translated or clarified in the proper context from English to Irish…..or if anyone has any tips on how to find a local resource or translator. I seem to be having no luck. I’m getting very different answers from learners vs native speakers. Such a beautiful language that nobody seems well versed in. :O(
Thanks Much!fáilte romhat – welcome.
I’m sure you’ll get lots of help here, but you’ll find that different people use different dialects of Irish.
And then people may use the official standard.
I tend to use a mixture!eadaoin
In that respect….I guess there is no right or wrong. I think my trouble is the phrase doesn’t translate.
It is:
Middle Child
(but not second born)I was told [color=green]páiste meánach[/color], but later was told that actually means Central child and sounds unnatural.
Then I got [color=red]páiste sa lár and páiste i lár baire[/color] (most common answer) which I was told were natural enough, although not really the same meaning as the English phrase for Middle Child
Lastly someone threw in [color=blue]an lárpháiste[/color] but I have no translation.
See my confusion? Any suggestions or corrections? I even spoke to a native speaker at The Irish Center and that confused me even more.
Thanks everyoneAfter some googling, I came across “an páiste láir” (“child of the middle”), which is the one that appeals most to me, personally.
I think I have also heard “tá mise i lár baill” or “i lár báire” (“I’m in the middle”), when referring to siblings, but I’m not sure someone would readily say “an páiste i lár báire/i lár baill”. “… sa lár” works more or less in the same way.
As you said, “an páiste meánach” and “an lárpháiste” don’t sound very natural.
However, I’m not a native speaker, so I might be wrong.
PS. The New English-Irish Dictionary which is available in a beta version has “an mac sa lár”, “an mac i lár báire” and “an mac i lár baill” (“the middle son”), but it is hard to judge whether this is trustworthy.
“Páiste i lár baill” sounds the most authentic to me. I have to wonder whether the use of “báire” has become misused. It seems expressions like “i dtús báire” have had their meanings extended beyond what they originally probably meant, unless I’m misunderstanding the true nature of the phrase. The authentic use of these expressions would seem to indicate how something falls in an order, but order in the sense of things happening, not position (I could be wrong about this). The word actually means “match” (as in a game), so expressions like “i lár báire” would indicate that something happened in the middle, not that it was physically positioned in the middle. “I lár baill” more appropriately means that it is in the middle of the members of whatever group is being talked about. Someone may correct me on all of this.
Whatever the correct phrase, I think it is important to use the definite article, given the fact that there can be only one “middle child”. Thus, “an páiste” rather than just “páiste”.
I checked the Turas Teanga video course and found the expression “Tá seisean i lár báire” (“He’s the one in the middle”) when speaking of a middle brother. See Lesson 2, Abair Leat 2.
I would think the use of the article would be more affected by context like most any other noun. I disagree that it is inherently referring to one person. You’ve probably heard someone say “an only child”. Why don’t they say “the only child”? Similarly, one can talk about a specific middle child or “mar pháiste i lár báire”, for example.
I’ve also found a bunch of examples of “i lár báire” referring to ages, so I guess it must be correct.
What I meant is that in English you could say “I’m a middle child”, using the indefinite article, but in Irish I would prefer to say “(is) mise an páiste i lár báire” (“I’m the middle child”) or even better “(is) mise atá i lár báire” (“I’m in the middle”). I don’t know if you could also say “Páiste i lár báire atá ionam”…
Probably the whole problem is due to the fact that the expression “middle child” is not common in Irish. Hence the diverging solutions reported by Katt.
Let’s see if more people join in the debate.
I think my head just exploded.LOL So nobody in Ireland gets middle child syndrome? :O) And yes…please join in and debate.:O)
I posted last night to clarify context and its not here….so….
I am the third child of 4….but am considered the middle child because Im not the oldest , youngest or the only son. I am the second girl and third child of 4.
I am the often overlooked middle child (but not in a bad way). :O) Its a label of sorts….”Middle Child”…but I realize now that it cant just be two words put together, rather has to be contextually accurate to provide definition.To Cúnla:
What about families with, say, five children? There must be quite many of them in Ireland. 😉 Any thoughts on “an páiste láir”? Does that sound very artificial?
To Katt:
Don’t despair yet. 😉
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