- This topic has 12 replies, 1 voice, and was last updated 11 years, 10 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
I’ve got a lot of fish.
My book says:
Tá a lán éisc agam.Shouldn’t it be:
Tá a lán iasc agam.I know a fish buyer.
My book says:
Tá aithne agam ar cheannaitheoir éisc.Shouldn’t it be:
Tá aithne agam ar cheannaitheoir iasc.He always buys fish from me.
My book says:
Ceannaíonn sé iasc uaim i gcónaí.Shouldn’t it be:
Ceaannaíonn sé éisc uaim i gcónaí.Is the book right or am I right in thinking that there is something fishy about this book?
*edit: Okay, I think I see why the last one is: Ceannaíonn sé iasc uaim i gcónaí.
It’s because “iasc” is the genitive plural, right? I still can’t figure out why the first 2 sentences are written that way in the book.I’ve got a lot of fish.
My book says:
Tá a lán éisc agam.Shouldn’t it be:
Tá a lán iasc agam.I know a fish buyer.
My book says:
Tá aithne agam ar cheannaitheoir éisc.Shouldn’t it be:
Tá aithne agam ar cheannaitheoir iasc.He always buys fish from me.
My book says:
Ceannaíonn sé iasc uaim i gcónaí.Shouldn’t it be:
Ceaannaíonn sé éisc uaim i gcónaí.Is the book right or am I right in thinking that there is something fishy about this book?
*edit: Okay, I think I see why the last one is: Ceannaíonn sé iasc uaim i gcónaí.
It’s because “iasc” is the genitive plural, right? I still can’t figure out why the first 2 sentences are written that way in the book.Good questions. What book is this, out of curiosity and who wrote it? And the last sentence shouldn’t require anything genitive. In fact, that’s the only one of the sentences that DOESN’T need a genitive.
The reason, I suspect is that when talking about buying “fish” in Irish, they probably are using the singular instead of the plural, as is implied when we talk about it in English (even though it’s technically hard to tell, since they are the same). Having never purchased fish in Ireland, I wouldn’t know. But in every one of those sentences, they are consistently using the singular instead of the plural, whatever the case. So if the sentences are correct then it means you use the singular of “iasc” to talk about fish in general and only use “éisc” to talk about specific multiple fish.
http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0333/D.0333.198203250004.html
One thing I like to do if I am questioning syntactic things like this is do Google searches for things that will find me examples of fluent writing that incorporate those ideas to see what they do. I did a search for “ceannach éisc” to see what comes up. The above link is the first one that looked to be something where you wouldn’t see silly grammatical errors appearing. Sure enough, here we have talk of people “atá ag plé le hiasc, ag ceannach éisc agus ag diol éisc, agus”. Definitely singular talk of fish being sold and dealt despite the fact that, undoubtedly, more than one fish is being transacted here. I’d say your book is right and it’s just an idiosyncracy of Irish fish-talk 😉
What book is this, out of curiosity and who wrote it?
“An Ghaeilge” by Aidan Doyle – It’s written in Polish.
It looks like you’ve figured it out! My book uses the singular form of “fish” when I would expect to see the plural form. I’m pretty sure that you’re right on this one, but I’m hoping that someone will verify this for us. Thanks for the help!
I would agree with Héilics that all the sentences refer to the singular, in the first two cases you have a genitive form (“lots OF fish”, “buyer OF fish”), whereas the last one is in the nominative.
That’s right Onuvanja, as I mentioned in my last post:
“My book uses the singular form of “fish” when I would expect to see the plural form.”
I was just checking to see if the book was in error.
I thought that maybe the last sentence might be in the genitive because of sentences like:
“Tá sé ag dúnadh an dorais.” or “Tá sé ag gearradh adhmaid.”
So, I thought the last sentence might also be in the genitive:
“Ceannaíonn sé iasc uaim i gcónaí.”
* edit: Oh yeah, I just remembered that the verbal noun is what causes the genitive in the sentences that I posted – I always forget about that! So, the last “fish sentence” would have used the genitive if it had “ag ceannaigh”.
Correct, except the verbal noun is “ceannach”.
It may help you to think of it this way: when you use the progressive construction (i.e. with ag + verbal noun), you are really saying “at the buying of fish” (genitive), whereas when you use a regular verb form you are actually giving the verb a direct object, so no genitive is required.
Correct, except the verbal noun is “ceannach”.
oops! That’s right, it’s ceannach :red:
It may help you to think of it this way: when you use the progressive construction (i.e. with ag + verbal noun), you are really saying “at the buying of fish” (genitive), whereas when you use a regular verb form you are actually giving the verb a direct object, so no genitive is required.
It will definitely help to think of it this way – Go raibh maith agat arís!
But in every one of those sentences, they are consistently using the singular instead of the plural, whatever the case. So if the sentences are correct then it means you use the singular of “iasc” to talk about fish in general and only use “éisc” to talk about specific multiple fish.
Yes, singular iasc, gen. éisc is used as a collective noun.
Oh yeah, I just remembered that the verbal noun is what causes the genitive in the sentences that I posted – I always forget about that!
You are not alone, a chara. I was constantly forgetting that! I got so frustrated that I stopped what I was working on, and did nothing but ag + VN + genitive exercises for two weeks!
Thanks Aislingeach – I needed that 🙂
Fadhb ar bith! Good to know I’m not the only one with that particular mental block!
Good to know I’m not the only one with that particular mental block!
It is probably a common error. A while back when I mistakenly “corrected” a sentence of yours and wrote, “Táim ag foghlaim na huimhreacha …” nobody spotted my error even though there were several knowledgeable people who were actively participating on that thread.
The correction to my correction was:
Táim ag foghlaim na n-uimhreacha anois …Anywhoo, misery loves company and I think we’ve got lots of company with this particular mental block 😉
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
