word order confusion

[ryan]

Dia dhaoibh! I’ve come across some sentences which confused me by the order of words. They’re from Ó Siadhail’s “Learning Irish”. First off:

Bhí teach mór ag a mbean agus bhí go leor seomraí ann.

I was expecting “seomraí go leor” instead of “go leor seomraí”. Does the order matter, and if not, is one way more commonly used than the other?

Second sentence:

Tá cóta deas ag Máire freisin agus gúna iontach.

I was expecting freisin to come later in the sentence, like “Tá cóta deas ag Máire agus freisin gúna iontach” or “Tá cóta deas ag Máire agus gúna iontach freisin.”

Again, is the order important here and if not, which way is most commonly used?

Go raibh maith agabh!

[aonghus]

Bhí teach mór ag a mbean agus bhí go leor seomraí ann.

“Go leor” usually comes first. Why were you expecting it to be different?

“go leor seomraí” – lots of/enough rooms

Tá cóta deas ag Máire freisin agus gúna iontach.

Here freisin refers to teh coat and not the dress.

Máire also has a nice coat and has a wonderful dress.

[Séril Báicéir]

Bhí teach mór ag a mbean agus bhí go leor seomraí ann.

“Go leor” usually comes first. Why were you expecting it to be different?

“go leor seomraí” – lots of/enough rooms

I think this issue has to do with what is the subject of the sentence. It’s a compound sentence (uses “and” to connect two normally seperate sentences) so it makes it a bit more difficult to spot. But if you take just the second part: “…bhí go leor seomraí ann.” “ann” changes everything for this sentence, because I believe it would be “Bhí seomraí go leor” if “go leor” were at the end…but that would mean “seomraí” is now the subject with “go leor being the predicate adjective. In English this sentence would read, “Rooms were enough.” Which isn’t the meaning of your original sentence. So your original sentence translates as “There were lots of/enough rooms.” “Lots of/enough” is clearly attached to “rooms” in this sentence, with “there” being the subject.

Bleh, I know I’m horrible at explaining grammar stuff, but I hope you can make some sense of what I tried to explain. If anyone else has an easier way of saying it, please chime in, or if I’m wrong please tell me that too. 🙂

[ryan]

Go raibh maith agat, a Aonghuis!

Regarding “ge leor”, I could have sworn that I’d seen it as “rudaí go leor” instead of “go leor rudaí”. However, I went back and reviewed the examples from earlier in the book, and have found several where the use the “go leor xxx” order. So I guess I need more study (and more caffeine).

Speaking of lack of caffeine, I’d thought that the sentence to be translated was this:

Máire has a nice coat and a wonderful dress too.

This is why I’d thought that the Gaeilge form would be something like “Tá cóta deas ag Máire agus gúna iontach freisin”. Reviewing the original sentence, it’s actually this though:

Máire also has a nice coat and a wonderful dress.

in which case “Tá cóta deas ag Máire freisin agus gúna iontach” makes sense (as you pointed out). So I’ll try to make sure I’m fully awake before posting next time. 🙂

[ryan]

Bhí teach mór ag a mbean agus bhí go leor seomraí ann.

“Go leor” usually comes first. Why were you expecting it to be different?

“go leor seomraí” – lots of/enough rooms

I think this issue has to do with what is the subject of the sentence. It’s a compound sentence (uses “and” to connect two normally seperate sentences) so it makes it a bit more difficult to spot. But if you take just the second part: “…bhí go leor seomraí ann.” “ann” changes everything for this sentence, because I believe it would be “Bhí seomraí go leor” if “go leor” were at the end…but that would mean “seomraí” is now the subject with “go leor being the predicate adjective. In English this sentence would read, “Rooms were enough.” Which isn’t the meaning of your original sentence. So your original sentence translates as “There were lots of/enough rooms.” “Lots of/enough” is clearly attached to “rooms” in this sentence, with “there” being the subject.

Bleh, I know I’m horrible at explaining grammar stuff, but I hope you can make some sense of what I tried to explain. If anyone else has an easier way of saying it, please chime in, or if I’m wrong please tell me that too. 🙂

Oh, I see! “Bhí go leor seomraí ann” for “There were lots of rooms”, and “Bhí seomraí go leor” meaning “Rooms were enough”. Presumably “Bhí seomraí go leor ann” means “I’m a beginning student of Irish”. 🙂 So the order in this case actually does change the meaning (as opposed to just being a sort of poetic license). GRMA!

[Séril Báicéir]

Presumably “Bhí seomraí go leor ann” means “I’m a beginning student of Irish”.

I nearly fell out of my chair laughing! That’s a good one! 😀

[Cúnla]

Go leor after a noun or adjective usually means ‘enough of X,’ ‘a fair amount of X,’ &c. When go leor comes before, it usually means ‘a lot of X’…

E.g.,

Bhíodh sí ag dul coitiannta go leor ag an dochtúr le scathamh roimhe sin fhéin.

‘She went to the doctor pretty frequently for a while even before then.’

But compare:

Tá go leor gamhna ar thalamh Phádraig, ab ea?

‘There are lots of calves on Pádraig’s land, is that it?’ (Both of those quotes are from Cré na Cille, incidentally)

Your bhí seomraí go leor ann would simply mean “there was a fair amount of rooms.”

[ryan]

Go leor after a noun or adjective usually means ‘enough of X,’ ‘a fair amount of X,’ &c. When go leor comes before, it usually means ‘a lot of X’…

Hmm, that’s an interesting take. A big part of my problem is that I’m still thinking in English and am trying to make sense of things from that standpoint. What you’ve said above makes sense to me in this context:

ceart go leor

To me, this means “true enough”, not “a lot of true” (although I’ve already proven I don’t know what I’m talking about). So, in a hypothetical situation where two cooks are preparing for a dinner party when unexpected guests arrive:

An mbeidh bia go leor?
Cinnte, beidh go leor bia.

Would this conversation amount to this:

Will there be enough food?
Sure, there will be lots of food.

Or (more likely) am I still misunderstanding something?

[Cúnla]

Well, for that meaning of ‘enough’ you’d use something else in Irish.

If you wanted to say “do we have enough food (for us)?” you’d say something like:

An bhfuil ár ndóthain bia againn?

[ryan]

Go raibh maith agat, a chara!

[Author]

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